The 2020 Free Agency Rumblings Thread

[dll2000]

5 hours ago, WindyCity said:

We don’t know that it is an improvement. We hope it is, but Ifedi hasn’t been good. We assume it will be because Long was so bad. Improvement by default.

I would have like to have seen an improvement compared to an average NFL OL play. 
 

Improving from horrendous to bad isn’t something I choose to celebrate, but then again some of us have standards and some of us are a Pace burner account.

I think Bears O line gradually improved when Long left as they got continuity and got used to Daniels and Whitehair switching back.

They were horrendous early with Long.  They became merely bad and they were playing with Lucas and Coward with Leno having his worst year.

Having watched 3 Ifedi games from 2019 (at OT) I think honestly if they chose to play him at RT (which they aren’t going to do) he would be a moderate upgrade on Massie.  I have to think he can play RG better than Coward did in 2019. I also think Coward can be an average to decent NFL guard with another year or two.  Not sure he will ever get that chance to properly develop.   

I think Seattle fans hatred of Ifedi stems more from failing to live up to expectations of a first round pick and earlier much worse years and then making some key penalties in critical game moments in 2019.  His actual down to down play in 2019 is pretty good in games I saw.  I would even say above average.

I think Daniels and Whitehair will be significantly better in 2020, especially Daniels who has all pro talent, but played like one of worst players in league for significant stretches of 2019.  I think RG has to be improved because it was generally awful.  Massie and Leno could be bad or average.  I am not sure they can be good.  We have to hope for average.

I still think passing on Josh Jones and Prince from Auburn was a huge mistake to take swings at OT for future.  I think moving Bars all around and not giving him playing time somewhere late in year was a huge mistake as well.

We’ll see how it shakes out.  Bears O line was worst dealt with in league last year to me.  From personnel decisions to tech to assignments.  Not sure whose fault it was, have to ultimately blame Pace and Nagy.

Edited May 10, 2020 by dll2000
Typos

[dll2000]

7 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

 

I still think passing on Josh Jones and Prince from Auburn was a huge mistake to take swings at OT for future.  I think moving Bars all around and not giving him playing time somewhere late in year was a huge mistake as well.

 

I mean I don’t think you can continue on with Massie and Leno.  Only two young building blocks are Daniels and Whitehair.

You had two significant young talents fall to you and you passed on both of them.  One with a late first round grade to me.  I think OTs are so hard to find and so valuable that passing on them for any TE is a huge mistake and one I wouldn’t do.  But to me O line is very important.  To Pace and Nagy, not so much.  

I don’t fault taking the CB as they too are hard to find, but I would have taken the Houston OT.  

We’ll see how it plays out though.  Obviously I have been wrong before.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by dll2000

[The_Romen]

1 hour ago, dll2000 said:

 

 In the Brees dynasty, I don't think the Saints ever really valued OL that highly in the draft. I know the Saints built inside out with really good guards and the tackles were cobbled together for the most part. This is their highest drafted OL yet:1st rd OT, 1st rd OG, a 2nd Rd C and a 3rd rd G.

Andy Reid's eagles had a few high picks at T and G ( Shawn Andrews, Winston Justice, Tra Thomas) that were all solid, but no cornerstones until Eric Fisher was #1 overall. Jason Peters was traded for, obviously.

It's kind of a crapshoot. You either hit or draft Chris Williams and Gabe Carimi or you get Ryan Ramcyzk and Andrus Peat.

[Sugashane]

4 hours ago, dll2000 said:

I think Daniels and Whitehair will be significantly better in 2020, especially Daniels who has all pro talent, but played like one of worst players in league for significant stretches of 2019.  I think RG has to be improved because it was generally awful.  Massie and Leno could be bad or average.  I am not sure they can be good.  We have to hope for average.

I still think passing on Josh Jones and Prince from Auburn was a huge mistake to take swings at OT for future.  

 

Agree. I'd like then to cement Whitehair at C as we saw his rookie year how good he could be. Daniels has a lot of talent and can be a solid G. You had two swings at OTs and if one hits you have an OT and OG. If both hit (lucky if so) then you could have your OL as-

Jones - Daniels- Whitehair - Bars - Prince. 

That may turn out to be a damn solid OL given time and would be one of the youngest in the NFL next year too. And cheap overall to boot. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by Sugashane

[The_Romen]

So if they do keep Whitehair at C, how does his weird snapping motion mesh with Foles if he's made starter? Is that something that can be worked on quickly, or is it a thing that needs an off-season of work?

[beardown3231]

2 hours ago, The_Romen said:

 In the Brees dynasty, I don't think the Saints ever really valued OL that highly in the draft. I know the Saints built inside out with really good guards and the tackles were cobbled together for the most part. This is their highest drafted OL yet:1st rd OT, 1st rd OG, a 2nd Rd C and a 3rd rd G.

Andy Reid's eagles had a few high picks at T and G ( Shawn Andrews, Winston Justice, Tra Thomas) that were all solid, but no cornerstones until Eric Fisher was #1 overall. Jason Peters was traded for, obviously.

It's kind of a crapshoot. You either hit or draft Chris Williams and Gabe Carimi or you get Ryan Ramcyzk and Andrus Peat.

Lane Johnson was taken in the top 10 by Philly. Maybe you're confusing him with Fisher, who was drafted #1 by KC.

Either way, like suga said, those teams have had great luck. That, or their scouts are better and/or their coaches can hide their issues. As an organization the Bears continue to ignore the position and they just can't continue to do so.

[The_Romen]

18 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

Lane Johnson was taken in the top 10 by Philly. Maybe you're confusing him with Fisher, who was drafted #1 by KC.

Either way, like suga said, those teams have had great luck. That, or their scouts are better and/or their coaches can hide their issues. As an organization the Bears continue to ignore the position and they just can't continue to do so.

Reid's first year with KC they took Eric Fisher, right? I more meant to say Reid's career, not just the eagles. 

[Sugashane]

1 hour ago, The_Romen said:

So if they do keep Whitehair at C, how does his weird snapping motion mesh with Foles if he's made starter? Is that something that can be worked on quickly, or is it a thing that needs an off-season of work?

I'm sure that will be tinkered with. Each coach has their own manner of teaching, Castillo probably is no different. If they toy with grips it will need offseason work, since snapping is completely different when you have to block full contact.  

Tbh I couldn't care less how he gets the ball to the QB, as long as he is consistent and accurate. How it gets caught makes less difference than a nice spiralling snap that the QB has to repeatedly change his eye level to fetch. 

[beardown3231]

17 minutes ago, The_Romen said:

Reid's first year with KC they took Eric Fisher, right? I more meant to say Reid's career, not just the eagles. 

I thought you meant the Eagles specifically, my bad

[WindyCity]

3 hours ago, The_Romen said:

 In the Brees dynasty, I don't think the Saints ever really valued OL that highly in the draft. I know the Saints built inside out with really good guards and the tackles were cobbled together for the most part. This is their highest drafted OL yet:1st rd OT, 1st rd OG, a 2nd Rd C and a 3rd rd G.

Andy Reid's eagles had a few high picks at T and G ( Shawn Andrews, Winston Justice, Tra Thomas) that were all solid, but no cornerstones until Eric Fisher was #1 overall. Jason Peters was traded for, obviously.

It's kind of a crapshoot. You either hit or draft Chris Williams and Gabe Carimi or you get Ryan Ramcyzk and Andrus Peat.

In terms of picks and contracts they have always spent and invested on the OL.

They currently have 3x1st round picks, 2nd round and 3rd round starting.

They previously drafted them in later rounds but paid them big money, traded for Max Unger, paid Ben Grubbs and Warford.

[SLCbear]

6 hours ago, dll2000 said:

 

I still think passing on Josh Jones and Prince from Auburn was a huge mistake to take swings at OT for future.  I think moving Bars all around and not giving him playing time somewhere late in year was a huge mistake as well.

When would have been able to select Jones ?? At 43 or 50, and Kmet and Johnson are both better prospects.

[The_Romen]

2 hours ago, beardown3231 said:

I thought you meant the Eagles specifically, my bad

All good. I could've had a better segue. 

 

1 hour ago, WindyCity said:

In terms of picks and contracts they have always spent and invested on the OL.

They currently have 3x1st round picks, 2nd round and 3rd round starting.

They previously drafted them in later rounds but paid them big money, traded for Max Unger, paid Ben Grubbs and Warford.

Fair. In Paces tenure there, they spent a bunch of seconds, a first, some thirds, a bunch of fourths and random later picks. They got solid return from almost all of them. Jahri Evans, Zach Strief and Carl Nicks were all great picks.

I'd like to see more of that approach. I get the Kmet and Johnson picks, but no OL until the 7th is inexcusable.

[Sugashane]

2 hours ago, SLCbear said:

When would have been able to select Jones ?? At 43 or 50, and Kmet and Johnson are both better prospects.

I'd argue against that. Jones was being talked about as a 1st round talent way more,  and was victim to a very talented OT class (which we failed to try to take advantage of). Kmet rarely was talked about as having an outsider's chance as a 1st rounder, and was elevated due to a poor TE class... and a major need here too.  

Johnson you could make the argument,  but with his injury history it's easy to debate against him as well.  

[JAF-N72EX]

10 hours ago, dll2000 said:

I think Bears O line gradually improved when Long left as they got continuity and got used to Daniels and Whitehair switching back.

They were horrendous early with Long.  They became merely bad and they were playing with Lucas and Coward with Leno having his worst year.

Having watched 3 Ifedi games from 2019 (at OT) I think honestly if they chose to play him at RT (which they aren’t going to do) he would be a moderate upgrade on Massie.  I have to think he can play RG better than Coward did in 2019. I also think Coward can be an average to decent NFL guard with another year or two.  Not sure he will ever get that chance to properly develop.   

I think Seattle fans hatred of Ifedi stems more from failing to live up to expectations of a first round pick and earlier much worse years and then making some key penalties in critical game moments in 2019.  His actual down to down play in 2019 is pretty good in games I saw.  I would even say above average.

I think Daniels and Whitehair will be significantly better in 2020, especially Daniels who has all pro talent, but played like one of worst players in league for significant stretches of 2019.  I think RG has to be improved because it was generally awful.  Massie and Leno could be bad or average.  I am not sure they can be good.  We have to hope for average.

I still think passing on Josh Jones and Prince from Auburn was a huge mistake to take swings at OT for future.  I think moving Bars all around and not giving him playing time somewhere late in year was a huge mistake as well.

We’ll see how it shakes out.  Bears O line was worst dealt with in league last year to me.  From personnel decisions to tech to assignments.  Not sure whose fault it was, have to ultimately blame Pace and Nagy.

I cannot stress it enough that the OL position relies more on teamwork than any other position in football and just one or two bad links in the chain can make the others look worse, And when you combine this with the staff not being on the same page you are going to end up with a disaster. Which is exactly what happened last year. 

 

[AZBearsFan]

4 hours ago, Sugashane said:

I'd argue against that. Jones was being talked about as a 1st round talent way more,  and was victim to a very talented OT class (which we failed to try to take advantage of). Kmet rarely was talked about as having an outsider's chance as a 1st rounder, and was elevated due to a poor TE class... and a major need here too.  

Johnson you could make the argument,  but with his injury history it's easy to debate against him as well.  

That’s where analysts and draftniks had them, but no team drafted Jones in rounds 1 or 2 despite several also needing OL starters, so it’s not like Pace was all on his own there either. Reality is that given what happened after we passed on Jones (twice) Pace’s decision not to take him in round 2 IMO is pretty validated even if many thought (or think) it was the wrong one. 

An earlier OL add there would have been ideal but it’s not as though Kmet or Johnson were out of nowhere picks or selections where there wasn’t also a glaring need for a long term starter. We realistically had 3 primary immediate needs (CB, TE and RG), and Pace used our top 2 picks to fill two of them. Would I have taken Kmet there? No. But Pace is not looking to win my approval but rather take the player he thinks is most likely to help us win. As far as 2020 goes Kmet should play a more significant role than an OL who would have likely needed a position switch to compete for 2020 reps.

Had Pace taken Jones instead of Kmet he would have also taken the guy a round before anyone in the league would have - we just wouldn’t have known that nobody else valued Jones that highly because the projections had him higher so it would largely have believed it to be a good value selection.

Plus, let’s not put Nagy and his staff out of the picture here either. They and Pace no doubt collaborated on the draft and on building the offense. Pace acquired Foles but that has obvious Nagy fingerprints. The TE-centric offseason has Nagy fingerprints too. If Nagy felt OL was a bigger need than TE we probably would have drafted OL. We can’t forget that the only way Pace looks good in his job is if Nagy succeeds in his.