2020 Tight End Titillating Talk

[ChaRisMa]

Some dude had a tweet saying go watch Jace Sternberger vs Kentucky.

If you are newer to watching games on YouTube, play the video at 3/4 speed so you can process more.

Best way I know of to hype yourself up for Sternbergers to be added to the 1265 Menu.

Edited March 23, 2020 by ChaRisMa
I don’t need a reason, piss off.

[MacReady]

Just now, ChaRisMa said:

Some dude had a tweet saying go watch Jace Sternberger vs Kentucky.

If you are newer to watching games on YouTube, play the video at 3/4 speed so you can process more.

Best way I know of to hype yourself up for Sternbergers to be added to the 1265 Menu.

Maybe a link would help you doofus. 

Watched it.  Feel like his ceiling is John Kuhn.  Gonna get called scrappy a lot. 

 

Edited March 23, 2020 by Outpost31

[craig]

Every summer a 2nd-year comes back and says he's added this good muscle, or trimmed that weight off to increase speed; what's your guess as to the weight Jace has moved himself to?  I admit I sometimes have mixed feelings about that.  Sometimes a guy in college shows good speed and athleticism, but needs to get stronger; he does build up and get stronger; but sometimes in the process he loses the speed and flexibility and athleticism that you liked in the first place.  (I call it the "Spriggs Phenomenon")

[Shanedorf]

I came across some other notable 3rd round TE's

https://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/positions/te

Jermichael Finley, Jared Cook, Martellus Bennett, Travis Kelce, Jimmy Graham, Austin Hooper, Jordan Reed and a few others
So we got that going for us, which is nice.

 

[Shanedorf]

from Andy Benoit at SI with their assessment of the NFC North teams and needs

https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/03/25/nfl-draft-team-needs-nfc-north

"...And at tight end, some scouts believe that last year’s third-round pick, Jace Sternberger, has the potential to be a high-quality flex receiving weapon. "

 

more from packers.com

https://www.packers.com/news/versatility-adds-to-jace-sternberger-s-long-term-upside

"His ability to adapt and thrive spoke volumes to both LaFleur and General Manager Brian Gutekunst.

"The flexibility he gives us, obviously he's got a lot of speed that can stretch the seam," Gutekunst said during his season-ending news conference last week. "He's a matchup problem for linebackers and safeties. At the end there, you saw Matt put him in the backfield and move him around a little bit. I think that's what you're going to see with Jace. I think he can be one of those guys as he develops where he can play from a lot of different places."

 

 

“Here’s what I love about Jace Sternberger: I know the game’s not too big for him,” LaFleur said. “He loves to compete, and he’s so versatile. Whether it’s inline, or it’s moving into an H-back, fullback-type position. The guy has contact courage. He’s not afraid to put his face on people. He’s a much better blocker than anyone ever thought he was coming out of Texas A&M. I’m just excited for his future.”

[craig]

21 minutes ago, Shanedorf said:

'...LaFleur said. “.... He’s a much better blocker than anyone ever thought he was coming out of Texas A&M. I’m just excited for his future.”'

Thanks, Shane, hadn't seen the blocking comment from LaFleur before.  That had been one of the primary questions coming out, so if the coach is positive, that's good news.  

Obviously coaches are often wrong, we get that.  But even when they are wrong, usage decisions are still dictated by what they think.  So if MLF thinks Jace can block, then Jace will get snaps.  

[craig]

Dumb question, but what's necessarily the difference in physical qualifications between "flex TE", "H-back", and "big slot"?  I don't really know how to put this question into words very well.  So, I know that "weight" listings on rosters are often grossly out-dated, and that real guy is often quite different from that.  But this is what I'm seeing:

• Jace:  6'4, 251
• Jermichael finley:  6'5", 247
• George Kittle, 6'4", 250
• Austin Hooper, 6'4", 254
• Zach Ertz, 6'5", 250
• Travis Kelce, 6'5, 260
• Robert Tonyan, 6'5", 237 (probably same listing as from back when he began his WR-to-TE transition)
• Allen Lazard, 6'5, 227
• ESB:  6'5", 230
• Funchess:  6'4", 225
• Danny Vitale, 6'0", 239

I guess what I'm wondering:  is ~250 is already pushing the bottom threshold required?  There are a whole bunch of elite TE's where 250-lb is normal.  WR like Funchess, Lazard, and ESB have comparable height, but typically 20-25 pounds less.  Are the blocking functions of TE/flex/H-back/Fullback such that Funchess, Lazard, and ESB just can't provide them, even if one or two of those guys decided to build up (with or without PEDs) to 240?  Maybe they'd still be too weak, plus have too much pad-level problem?  

Or might there be a whole class of "tweener" athletes, somewhere in between TE and WR, that a coach could put to good use in some way I can't envision?  I guess I'm hoping so, given that Gute seems to be stockpiling guys who aren't fast-quick-elusive enough to be good WR, but aren't big-strong enough to be good TE's.  

Hoping that Jace can get hot early and somehow get, and then stay, within Rodgers' "I-trust-him-and-I'm-looking-for-him" brain.  

[MacReady]

I’m telling y’all Jace is our new Kuhn.  Dude’s gonna be a fan favorite Do Your Jobber.  

[Joe]

Jace is a better blocker than people give him credit for IMHO. He lined up at H-Back several times late last year and was effective. I still think we add another TE to that room, however; where and who is anyone's guess.

[HighCalebR]

1 hour ago, craig said:

Dumb question, but what's necessarily the difference in physical qualifications between "flex TE", "H-back", and "big slot"?  I don't really know how to put this question into words very well.  So, I know that "weight" listings on rosters are often grossly out-dated, and that real guy is often quite different from that. 

 

 

Your h-back is closer to a FB where you have backside blocks, lead blocks and things of that nature, it's not uncommon to see a WR motioned into an Hback look. Stalemates are wins more or less.

Flex TE is just your athletic TE who you think is a mismatch against LBs in coverage so you might flex them out and move them around. Generally not as good of an in line blocker.

Big slot and Flex TE can be synonymous or close to it. Youre thinking they'll be able to take care of the DB across from them. Or be able to get by the lb they stack on you in zone.

A few of the more tweener guys generally get assigned the 3rd safety these days anyways. Physically not much is that different.

The difference is technical. Being a FB takes a certain mindset to dig someone out of the hole. If youre a move TE who doesnt want to block you better be damn good at catching or you wont last long. If you want to be able to win against an even matchup you have to have everyone doing their job in the trenches. Do you trust Lazard to contain Danielle Hunter 1/3rd of the snaps even? How many times, across the league, did we see TE's 1v1 vs DEs this year in pro and it ends up poorly? Now imagine sticking Funchess on them.

There's some crossover, between the positions, to get that "look multiple, play simple" style but youre going to want some guys who specialize a little more in those areas. Why ask these guys to bulk 20 lbs and do things they dont have a ton of experience doing when theres players available who do those things?

[AlexGreen#20]

1 hour ago, craig said:

Dumb question, but what's necessarily the difference in physical qualifications between "flex TE", "H-back", and "big slot"?  I don't really know how to put this question into words very well.  So, I know that "weight" listings on rosters are often grossly out-dated, and that real guy is often quite different from that.  But this is what I'm seeing:

• Jace:  6'4, 251
• Jermichael finley:  6'5", 247
• George Kittle, 6'4", 250
• Austin Hooper, 6'4", 254
• Zach Ertz, 6'5", 250
• Travis Kelce, 6'5, 260
• Robert Tonyan, 6'5", 237 (probably same listing as from back when he began his WR-to-TE transition)
• Allen Lazard, 6'5, 227
• ESB:  6'5", 230
• Funchess:  6'4", 225
• Danny Vitale, 6'0", 239

I guess what I'm wondering:  is ~250 is already pushing the bottom threshold required?  There are a whole bunch of elite TE's where 250-lb is normal.  WR like Funchess, Lazard, and ESB have comparable height, but typically 20-25 pounds less.  Are the blocking functions of TE/flex/H-back/Fullback such that Funchess, Lazard, and ESB just can't provide them, even if one or two of those guys decided to build up (with or without PEDs) to 240?  Maybe they'd still be too weak, plus have too much pad-level problem?  

Or might there be a whole class of "tweener" athletes, somewhere in between TE and WR, that a coach could put to good use in some way I can't envision?  I guess I'm hoping so, given that Gute seems to be stockpiling guys who aren't fast-quick-elusive enough to be good WR, but aren't big-strong enough to be good TE's.  

Hoping that Jace can get hot early and somehow get, and then stay, within Rodgers' "I-trust-him-and-I'm-looking-for-him" brain.  

H back is a term that goes way back into history. If you think of today's I formation, and start at the line of scrimmage and move backwards it goes in order:

1. Quarter Back = 1/4 = Quarter of the way back.

2. Full Back = 1/1 = Fully Back

3. Half Back = 1/2 = Halfway Back

That makes no sense. It should go:

1. Quarterback

2. Halfback

3. Fullback

so it's in order. And back in the day that's how it was. If you ever see that Jim Taylor won an MVP for the Packers at Fullback, know that he was actually playing the Halfback position you think of today. 

The Fullback was more the straight ahead runner and the Halfback was more the faster guy used for all sorts of different assignments from blocking, to running the ball, to running routes

Well then The Veer offense happened. Some people call it the T formation. At that point, both backs were lined up at the same depth, but because teams adopted it with current players, their position labels stuck.

This next part is going to be grossly simplified, but, the beer was more about speed than power, so the bigger back took on more blocking duties. At that point it kinda became ingrained in people's minds that blocking back equals fullback and running back equals Halfback. When singleback formations became dominant, those names stuck, and the designations became counter to their origin. 

Fast forward a bunch of years and Chris Collinsworth is sitting there trying to come up with a name for what Aaron Hernandez is doing as he lines up at the Fullback (and the Wingback) spot and catching balls, running for touchdowns, and lead blocking. So he bounces back to his youth and labels him the H-Back. H-Back ironically just being short for Halfback, which is already on the field. 

Now take a step back and realize most teams aren't running the ball with their H Back. It's just a name for a TE that lead blocks. 

As far as their sizes, it's all about the flavor you're looking for. If you're looking for a receiver that can lead block, you're probably looking at 235ish. Have you seen the size of Linebackers these days?

If you're looking for a guy who can block the edge, don't come out with anything lighter than 250.

 

Edited March 26, 2020 by AlexGreen#20

[craig]

Thanks, Caleb and Alex.  I think some of the points you guys both made are really helpful for me conceptually:

• Alex, the story of where the "new" "H-back" came from was really helpful, thanks. 
• Mindset.  Jace may weigh ~ same as Finley, and less than Jimmy; but neither Fin more Graham really loved to block.  That mindset, whether you love to tangle, or it's a gotta-do-it-gotta-try-but-I'm-never-going-to-love-it factor is probably nontrivial.  Maybe Jace will have it.  
• Training and pad-level:  Funchess and ESB might be able to size up and have pounds like a fullback; but they won't have the experience, or the pad-level. 
• I totally get the issue with in-line blocking, and pass-protection.  That OLB get some sacks when TE's are supposed to block them, and don't, is very well taken.  And that if I take it further and start trying to ask an even lighter and less-blocking-experienced WR-convert like ESB to do that, it might be disaster.  
• But yeah, teams routinely ask 200-220-pound running backs (halfbacks!) to pick up blitz and get in the way of pass-rushers; I'm not sure why a 235-pound H-back couldn't?  And likewise while I don't think a 235-pound WR/H-back type should be single-teaming Danielle Hunter on 20 snaps; at the same time I'm not sure why he couldn't be lining up outside of Wagner, and helping to double-team Hunter *if* Hunter goes wide?; or to give him a token push and then dash out into the flat as an only slightly delayed safety-valve target?  
• *If* ESB makes the team, and *IF* he ever again gets any snaps, I envision him having considerable power and blocking potential.  Don't think he'll be quick enough to be a high-end receiver, but I imagine him being a pretty physical blocker.  Whether he'll have the fire and aggression to be a consistently good one, not so sure....

 

 

[Norm]

3 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Well then The Veer offense happened. Some people call it the T formation. At that point, both backs were lined up at the same depth, but because teams adopted it with current players, their position labels stuck.

This next part is going to be grossly simplified, but, the beer was more about speed than power, so the bigger back took on more blocking duties. At that point it kinda became ingrained in people's minds that blocking back equals fullback and running back equals Halfback. When singleback formations became dominant, those names stuck, and the designations became counter to their origin. 

I never even knew this. Makes perfect sense though. Good stuff. 

[MrBobGray]

Think people are selling Jace a little short.  That man is a very high end natural receiver, he has no issue turning back for the ball, catching it off stride, low, high, whatever.  Always fluid at the catch point and transitions immediately to a runner.  Also is very willing as a blocker, just doesn't have the size or body for it yet.  I'm not at all guaranteeing he's going to be a good pro or anything, but there's plenty of talent there and in a weak TE class he goes round 1-2.  I'll shoot my shot here and say I do expect him to make some noise receiving this year.

[AlexGreen#20]

4 hours ago, Norm said:

I never even knew this. Makes perfect sense though. Good stuff. 

More people need to like that damn post. That **** was interesting.