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Derek Jeter and Larry Walker elected to HoF

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3 minutes ago, mission27 said:

To me Manny not being in the hall of fame is not as offensive as Bonds or Clemens obviously but still insane and a total joke

Nobody who watched baseball from 95-2010 or whatever could say Manny wasn’t one of the greatest players ever, period 

I mean we all know why he's not in, so what's even the point of talking about it lol

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1 minute ago, redsoxsuck05 said:

I mean we all know why he's not in, so what's even the point of talking about it lol

Because he’s a cocksucker and injustice against cocksuckers must be called out

 

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I think it’s bs that people ***** about Bonds and Clemens but combine the steroids + bad defense argument to say guys like Manny Sosa and Sheffield aren’t slam dunks

Tbh I want to play those people on MVP Baseball 2005, I’ll take Manny Sosa and Sheffield and they can have Scott Rolen and Omar Vizquel and we’ll see who wins 

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52 minutes ago, mission27 said:

Todd Helton also doesn’t seem like a slam dunk to me considering he played with so many first baseman who were better than him (McGwire, Bagwell, Thomas, Thome, Pujols, Miggy, Palmeiro, Votto all overlapped and had better careers, McGrifd, Berkman, Giambi, and Delgado all comparable or arguably better, heck even  John Olreaud has a case)

I want to focus on Helton because he's an interesting case:

1) His prime didn't really overlap with Mac, Bagwell, Palmeiro, Votto, Miggy, Hurt or McGriff.

2) 1st basemen were just incredible during the steroid era...I don't think it's fair to punish Helton for that. Catchers were incredible during the 70s, Shortstops in the late 90s, etc.

3) I'll convincingly take Helton over any of the guys you said are comparable or arguably better.

4) He led the NL in WAR once

5) He was a lifer, which is cool and makes a great narrative for an expansion team.

6) He has a really consistent peak that you can't write off as outliers. I hate when some guy puts up a fluke 9 win year and people act like that's who he was.

On the other hand:

1) He became a really boring player after his 5 year peak. I wish he could've sprinkled in just one dominant season in his 30s.

2) Other than 2000 he was never among the best in the league.

3) He doesn't have any signature moments other than being an elder statesman with a cool beard on a team that got swept in the WS.

4) A lot of his value is tied to rudimentary defensive stats.

All in all I like Helton a lot and don't give a **** about Coors Field. It's definitely not the strongest case ever though because he was so bland outside of his peak.

Edited by redsoxsuck05

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18 minutes ago, mission27 said:

I think it’s bs that people ***** about Bonds and Clemens but combine the steroids + bad defense argument to say guys like Manny Sosa and Sheffield aren’t slam dunks

Tbh I want to play those people on MVP Baseball 2005, I’ll take Manny Sosa and Sheffield and they can have Scott Rolen and Omar Vizquel and we’ll see who wins 

I don't really see the logic in your argument. Are you arguing that every roided player who hit a lot of homeruns in the late 90s should be treated the same?

Here's the difference. Bonds >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sheffield, Manny >>>>>>>>>>> Sosa

Btw I played MVP and Rolen had a better OVR than Sosa and Sheffield.

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, redsoxsuck05 said:

I don't really see the logic in your argument. Are you arguing that every roided player who hit a lot of homeruns in the late 90s should be treated the same?

Here's the difference. Bonds >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sheffield, Manny >>>>>>>>>>> Sosa

Btw I played MVP and Rolen had a better OVR than Sosa and Sheffield.

 

 

 

I'm arguing all three guys were all-time great players and slam dunk Hall of Famers and the use of questionable reconstructed defensive metrics plus who cares steroid allegations doesnt really change that.

I mean Manny Ramirez hit .300 30 100 basically every season for 15 years.  He was the greatest right handed hitter of his generation.  He's not a borderline candidate and people treat him like one.

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Fun fact: the Red Sox will pay Manny more than Rafael Devers next season

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3 hours ago, redsoxsuck05 said:

I want to focus on Helton because he's an interesting case:

1) His prime didn't really overlap with Mac, Bagwell, Palmeiro, Votto, Miggy, Hurt or McGriff.

2) 1st basemen were just incredible during the steroid era...I don't think it's fair to punish Helton for that. Catchers were incredible during the 70s, Shortstops in the late 90s, etc.

3) I'll convincingly take Helton over any of the guys you said are comparable or arguably better.

4) He led the NL in WAR once

5) He was a lifer, which is cool and makes a great narrative for an expansion team.

6) He has a really consistent peak that you can't write off as outliers. I hate when some guy puts up a fluke 9 win year and people act like that's who he was.

On the other hand:

1) He became a really boring player after his 5 year peak. I wish he could've sprinkled in just one dominant season in his 30s.

2) Other than 2000 he was never among the best in the league.

3) He doesn't have any signature moments other than being an elder statesman with a cool beard on a team that got swept in the WS.

4) A lot of his value is tied to rudimentary defensive stats.

All in all I like Helton a lot and don't give a **** about Coors Field. It's definitely not the strongest case ever though because he was so bland outside of his peak.

Should get in for his on base rate.  He was pretty much second to Bonds in that regard his entire career.  Even on the road it was .386 lifetime. 

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4 hours ago, mission27 said:

I'm arguing all three guys were all-time great players and slam dunk Hall of Famers and the use of questionable reconstructed defensive metrics plus who cares steroid allegations doesnt really change that.

I mean Manny Ramirez hit .300 30 100 basically every season for 15 years.  He was the greatest right handed hitter of his generation.  He's not a borderline candidate and people treat him like one.

This. A HOF without Clemens, Bonds, McGwire, and Ramirez is a joke. Sosa should be in too. He deserves extra credit for saving the game along with McGwire in addition to his CS prowess

 

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11 hours ago, mission27 said:

But like what starting pitcher worse than Andy has gotten in over the last 30 years or more? 

The bar for SP has gotten increasingly high. If we keep using that unrealistic bar, we're missing guys like Pettitte who would make it as a position player IMO.

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The HOF is really hard to get in and yet Harold Baines is in. What a joke.

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1 hour ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

The bar for SP has gotten increasingly high. If we keep using that unrealistic bar, we're missing guys like Pettitte who would make it as a position player IMO.

I'm just asking, when was the bar lower?  Like 1940?

Guys like Jim Katt, Louis Tiant, Carl Mays, Orel Hershiser, Tommy John, etc. arent in either.  It took Bert Blyleven and Jack Morris years.  Those arent guys from the 90s and 00s.

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I guess the question is do we treat SP as half the player universe or just one position out of nine.  I think it has to be somewhere in between tbh.

 

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6 minutes ago, mission27 said:

I guess the question is do we treat SP as half the player universe or just one position out of nine.  I think it has to be somewhere in between tbh.

 

I see it as:

AL - 50% batters, 50% pitchers, with some of the pitchers being RP so slightly less than 50% of the player universe
NL - slightly less than 50% batters, slightly more than 50% pitchers, but the RP probably knocks down the SP contribution to about 50% on the dot

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1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

The HOF is really hard to get in and yet Harold Baines is in. What a joke.

Still better than Omar

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