redsoxsuck05 Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, MWil23 said: It's also not proven not to be. Give me your list bro. You’ll probably find a few guys from the 1920s who are borderline at worst based on the evaluation methods of their era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 3 minutes ago, redsoxsuck05 said: Give me your list bro. You’ll probably find a few guys from the 1920s who are borderline at worst based on the evaluation methods of their era. It's not so much who DID get in that shouldn't have, but rather guys that fall off the ballot or do not get in that would have/would have sooner in BIG MARKETS: *Kenny Lofton falling off the first time *Omar Vizquel gets more love (I still think he gets in 2022/2023) *Vlad (gets in 1st ballot) *Larry Walker (Doesn't wait 10 years. See: Colorado and Montreal) etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramssuperbowl99 Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 8 minutes ago, mse326 said: Yup. But also ones that are in danger of falling off. I think Abreu is a hall of famer and was routinely underrated. Is he one of the top 10 that is eligible? No. But I'd have voted for him to ensure every chance he at least stayed on the ballot for future consideration (he just made it if anyone was wondering). Same goes for Giambi, who didn't stay on. I'd actually prioritize those guys over the ones in the middle who I know are safe but definitely not getting in, at least on this ballot. I just hate when guys like Lofton and Kevin Brown are one and done. I can understand not thinking they are HoFers but they are so much better than people that have got in, let alone stay on the ballot. (I'd also include my most underrated player ever on this list - John Olerud) I thought about mentioning Abreu, but he just feels so Hall of Very Good to me. It's an irrational thing though, you could totally make that argument. And I agree about the 1 and dones. Lance Berkman lasting 1 year on the ballot was a travesty. But at this point, I don't know how to clean it up. If you vote for the guys to keep them on the ballot, you're not voting to clear the best guys out of the ballot so the congestion gets worse. If you vote for guys to get them to 75%, you're losing ballplayers who at least deserve 10 bites at the apple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mse326 Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 1 minute ago, ramssuperbowl99 said: I thought about mentioning Abreu, but he just feels so Hall of Very Good to me. It's an irrational thing though, you could totally make that argument. And I agree about the 1 and dones. Lance Berkman lasting 1 year on the ballot was a travesty. But at this point, I don't know how to clean it up. If you vote for the guys to keep them on the ballot, you're not voting to clear the best guys out of the ballot so the congestion gets worse. If you vote for guys to get them to 75%, you're losing ballplayers who at least deserve 10 bites at the apple. The way I do it (as in how I do my hypothetical ballot) is vote for 1) Inner circle guys (this is sort of just my gut on if they belong inner circle I don't have an actual criteria) 2) the guys are think are going to be on the cusp of getting in (to clear up clutter) 3) the guys I think are at risk of falling off. Then I can fill in whats left with those in the middle. Like as an example Manny Ramirez absolutely deserves to be in the hall but it is clear from last years ballot that he would be safe but also no chance of getting in. He would be one of the last I used my vote on because other than signaling it really wouldn't serve a purpose as it wouldn't declutter anything or protect someone. Then just hope that enough guys on that cusp get in to remove the clutter and I can vote for him next year. The 10 only rule is definitely dumb, and it's been made infinitely worse by the moralizing of the voters not voting for "PED" guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsoxsuck05 Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, MWil23 said: It's not so much who DID get in that shouldn't have, but rather guys that fall off the ballot or do not get in that would have/would have sooner in BIG MARKETS: *Kenny Lofton falling off the first time *Omar Vizquel gets more love (I still think he gets in 2022/2023) *Vlad (gets in 1st ballot) *Larry Walker (Doesn't wait 10 years. See: Colorado and Montreal) etc. Lofton fell off because of the perceived gap between his sabermetric and traditional profile, plus he spent forever as a journeyman which hurts his narrative. The same thing hurt Tim Raines. Vizquel’s candidacy is a joke. Vlad being listed is a major stretch. Walker only had to wait because of the morons who automatically dismiss any player who ever played in Denver. The big market magic certainly didn’t work for Posada, Williams, Munson, Mattingly either. It didn’t work for Dwight Evans or Fred Lynn. It’s not working for Rolen. Edited January 22, 2020 by redsoxsuck05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, redsoxsuck05 said: Vizquel’s candidacy is a joke. *Ignore* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsoxsuck05 Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 6 minutes ago, MWil23 said: *Ignore* There are so many “big-market” players from that era who didn’t even get consideration for the HOF that were better players than Vizquel. Just off the top of my head: Nomar Garciaparra Jorge Posada Bernie Williams John Olerud Moises Alou Mark Grace Matt Williams Tim Salmon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 Just now, redsoxsuck05 said: There are so many “big-market” players from that era who didn’t even get consideration for the HOF that were better players than Vizquel. Just off the top of my head: Nomar Garciaparra *Audible laugh Just now, redsoxsuck05 said: Jorge Posada It's a shame he fell off the ballot so soon. Just now, redsoxsuck05 said: Bernie Williams Was a poor man's Kenny Lofton tbh. Just now, redsoxsuck05 said: John Olerud When you're more famous for a helmet in the field than you are as a player, that's a problem. Just now, redsoxsuck05 said: Moises Alou Old guy who urinates on his hands to prevent blisters, also plays baseball. Just now, redsoxsuck05 said: Mark Grace I liked him a lot. Just now, redsoxsuck05 said: Matt Williams Unfortunate PED stuff, but I really like(d) him as well. Just now, redsoxsuck05 said: Tim Salmon I wouldn't personally call the Angels in his prime a good indicator of "big market" success and think that he's criminally underrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsoxsuck05 Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 All of those players listed were better than Vazquez. Especially Nomah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slateman Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 In what world are Bernie Williams and Kenny Lofton versions of each other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 It doesn't really matter. The HoF is a joke as long as Bonds and Clemens aren't in it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mission27 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 6 hours ago, ramssuperbowl99 said: Bulk stats, tons of top 5 CYA, and he played on winning teams. I could see not including him, but the bar for SP is so stupid high right now that I'm fine taking guys with resumes that seem short as pitchers and letting them in. But like what starting pitcher worse than Andy has gotten in over the last 30 years or more? Jack Morris maybe but I think a lot of people were justifiably skeptical of him. He seems like a borderline candidate at best. He would be very far from the best candidate not inducted. Todd Helton also doesn’t seem like a slam dunk to me considering he played with so many first baseman who were better than him (McGwire, Bagwell, Thomas, Thome, Pujols, Miggy, Palmeiro, Votto all overlapped and had better careers, McGrifd, Berkman, Giambi, and Delgado all comparable or arguably better, heck even John Olreaud has a case) Rolen and Andruw Jones aren’t inner circle guys but I’m definitely not offended by anyone supporting their candidacy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mission27 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 1 minute ago, beekay414 said: It doesn't really matter. The HoF is a joke as long as Bonds and Clemens aren't in it. Truth 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mission27 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 For me... Bonds Clemens Jeter Rolen Are all top-10 at their position all time, and it’s not DH or CL, so hard to see the argument against them. They are hall of famers. Id also vote for... Manny Sosa Schilling Walker Sheffield Andruw Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mission27 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 To me Manny not being in the hall of fame is not as offensive as Bonds or Clemens obviously but still insane and a total joke Nobody who watched baseball from 95-2010 or whatever could say Manny wasn’t one of the greatest players ever, period Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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