ramssuperbowl99 Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 1 hour ago, MWil23 said: I have zero problem if Lincecum doesn't get in for all of those reasons. I'm simply saying that he should have an argument and shouldn't fall off of the ballot his first eligible year. Exactly. I don't think anybody is ride or die Tim Lincecum is a Hall of Famer, but these are the guys we should be discussing, not the Johan, King Felix, or Zack Greinkes of the world. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mission27 Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) 20 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said: Exactly. I don't think anybody is ride or die Tim Lincecum is a Hall of Famer, but these are the guys we should be discussing, not the Johan, King Felix, or Zack Greinkes of the world. But why? What position player with 20 career WAR and four good seasons is in the hall of fame discussion? Is Matt Kemp a hall of fame candidate too because he has 20 career WAR and an MVP? If you want to advocate for a big hall, no objection here, but we all need to level set that guys like Lincecum getting in has never been the standard from the BWAA. Yeah a few very iffy candidates have been inducted but they are very much the exception not the rule. Edited January 24, 2020 by mission27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramssuperbowl99 Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, mission27 said: But why? What position player with 20 career WAR and four good seasons is in the hall of fame discussion? Is Matt Kemp a hall of fame candidate too because he has 20 career WAR and an MVP? If you want to advocate for a big hall, no objection here, but we all need to level set that guys like Lincecum getting in has never been the standard from the BWAA. Yeah a few very iffy candidates have been inducted but they are very much the exception not the rule. There isn't any position player with 20 WAR who had Tim Lincecum's peak. Matt Kemp's MVP season was propped up on a UZR rating that was frankly insane. Lincecum was a legitimate 7 WAR guy for a few years, and then the velocity went away so he turned into a replacement player overnight. And that's not a crazy thing for a a pitcher. If you're a hitter and at some point you're one of the 2 or 3 best in the world, you can stick around long enough to get to the 40 or 50 WAR area to merit consideration. If you're a pitcher and you're one of the best few in the world, you might have a long career as well, or you might lose velocity and fall of a cliff. It's just different. Like I said, I'm not ride or die Tim Lincecum is a Hall of Famer. But if you want 40% ish pitchers in the Hall of Fame, you're going to be talking about, then probably dismissing guys like him. The bar is so skewed right now, we're dismissing guys like Roy Oswalt or Felix Hernandez out of hand instead. If you think the current hitter:pitcher ratio is okay, then I get laughing at this kind of conversation and we can agree to disagree. Edited January 24, 2020 by ramssuperbowl99 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mission27 Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 20 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said: There isn't any position player with 20 WAR who had Tim Lincecum's peak. Matt Kemp's MVP season was propped up on a UZR rating that was frankly insane. Lincecum was a legitimate 7 WAR guy for a few years, and then the velocity went away so he turned into a replacement player overnight. And that's not a crazy thing for a a pitcher. If you're a hitter and at some point you're one of the 2 or 3 best in the world, you can stick around long enough to get to the 40 or 50 WAR area to merit consideration. If you're a pitcher and you're one of the best few in the world, you might have a long career as well, or you might lose velocity and fall of a cliff. It's just different. Like I said, I'm not ride or die Tim Lincecum is a Hall of Famer. But if you want 40% ish pitchers in the Hall of Fame, you're going to be talking about, then probably dismissing guys like him. The bar is so skewed right now, we're dismissing guys like Roy Oswalt or Felix Hernandez out of hand instead. If you think the current hitter:pitcher ratio is okay, then I get laughing at this kind of conversation and we can agree to disagree. What do you mean by 40%? Like 40% of all pitchers are hall of famers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 19 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said: There isn't any position player with 20 WAR who had Tim Lincecum's peak. Matt Kemp's MVP season was propped up on a UZR rating that was frankly insane. Lincecum was a legitimate 7 WAR guy for a few years, and then the velocity went away so he turned into a replacement player overnight. And that's not a crazy thing for a a pitcher. If you're a hitter and at some point you're one of the 2 or 3 best in the world, you can stick around long enough to get to the 40 or 50 WAR area to merit consideration. If you're a pitcher and you're one of the best few in the world, you might have a long career as well, or you might lose velocity and fall of a cliff. It's just different. That's why, IMO, there are so many RELIEF PITCHERS in the HOF compared to SP. You can hang on for a WHILE as an RP, whether it's as a LOOGY, set-up, long relief, closer, etc. Unless you have dominant stuff with an above average fastball or unique delivery (Smoltz, Eckersely), you are likely going to go from a dominant SP to out of the game/close to it. If you're a reliever, you can be a closer often times for a while. As an SP, so many things work against you: *Stamina *Velocity *Wear and Tear/Injuries 19 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said: Like I said, I'm not ride or die Tim Lincecum is a Hall of Famer. But if you want 40% ish pitchers in the Hall of Fame, you're going to be talking about, then probably dismissing guys like him. The bar is so skewed right now, we're dismissing guys like Roy Oswalt or Felix Hernandez out of hand instead. If you think the current hitter:pitcher ratio is okay, then I get laughing at this kind of conversation and we can agree to disagree. Exactly. Greinke is a lock. Felix should be. Johann was arguably the most dominant pitcher in the game for the better half of a decade. I was terrified Doc Holladay would get screwed over too. Schilling not getting in is laughable. Jake Peavy should at least be DISCUSSED. ('04-'09 he was good to great) Cliff Lee falling off of the ballot year 1 was a JOKE ('08-'13 he was really good with ELITE years in there) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramssuperbowl99 Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 8 minutes ago, mission27 said: What do you mean by 40%? Like 40% of all pitchers are hall of famers? The HoF would be split 60/40 batters/pitchers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramssuperbowl99 Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said: The HoF would be split 60/40 batters/pitchers. I'm smugly taking a page out of @mission27's playbook and quoting myself. As part of this, the bar would be lower for pitchers to get in than position players. The plain and simple reality of baseball is that amassing a large WAR total or having a long, storied career is harder for pitchers than position players. I think they should be graded on a curve. If you don't, that's cool we can agree to disagree. Edited January 24, 2020 by ramssuperbowl99 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbadbuff Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 Cliff Lee falling off the ballot after one year is an utter disgrace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holt_bruce81 Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 I’m happy for Larry Walker and I’ll be happy when Scott Rolen eventually gets in....it definitely looks like it’s getting closer for Rolen. But how do these guys get in and Jim Edmonds doesn’t get enough votes to even remain on the ballot after 1 year? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramssuperbowl99 Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 4 minutes ago, holt_bruce81 said: But how do these guys get in and Jim Edmonds doesn’t get enough votes to even remain on the ballot after 1 year? The BBWAA suck at their jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsthomp2007 Posted February 15, 2020 Share Posted February 15, 2020 On 1/22/2020 at 10:52 AM, nagahide13 said: I don't understand HOF voting at all. Rivera is the only 100% in history? Whomever didn't vote for Ripken etc. should be banned from the game. I've seen it said that Jeter is about the 12 best SS all-time. That seems fair. He should obviously be in, but he's certainly not at the level of some of the guys that (apparently) got fewer votes. Babe Ruth, Gerhig, Mays, Cobb, Mantle, Matthewson, etc. All didn't get unanimous decisions and I know why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mission27 Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 On 1/22/2020 at 10:52 AM, nagahide13 said: I don't understand HOF voting at all. Rivera is the only 100% in history? Whomever didn't vote for Ripken etc. should be banned from the game. I've seen it said that Jeter is about the 12 best SS all-time. That seems fair. He should obviously be in, but he's certainly not at the level of some of the guys that (apparently) got fewer votes. Tbh I’m not sure what 11 your putting ahead of him WAagner ARod Ripken who else? Yeah he’s around 10th in career WAR but when you consider 4-12 are pretty closely bunched and add in what he did In the playoffs and the 5 World Series rings, it’s hard for me to see an argument for a guy like Robin Yount ahead of him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mse326 Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 2 hours ago, mission27 said: Tbh I’m not sure what 11 your putting ahead of him WAagner ARod Ripken who else? Yeah he’s around 10th in career WAR but when you consider 4-12 are pretty closely bunched and add in what he did In the playoffs and the 5 World Series rings, it’s hard for me to see an argument for a guy like Robin Yount ahead of him I definitely add Vaughan, Banks, and Boudreau, Others are debatable. Playoff performance for Jeter matters to me, 5 rings does not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagahide13 Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, mission27 said: Tbh I’m not sure what 11 your putting ahead of him WAagner ARod Ripken who else? Yeah he’s around 10th in career WAR but when you consider 4-12 are pretty closely bunched and add in what he did In the playoffs and the 5 World Series rings, it’s hard for me to see an argument for a guy like Robin Yount ahead of him I hadn't actually given it any thought, it just seemed appropriate. If you had him 5 i wouldn't argue at all. I'd have Ozzie Smith over him for sure. I'm not big on guys like Honus Wagner being #1 all time. That's just silly vicarious nostalgia imo. I have zero idea where I'd put the cutoff, (Babe Ruth + Ty Cobb good) but I think it certainly goes in some arbitrary spot before that. Probably somewhere around the late 40's/early 50's with some obvious outliers. Edited February 16, 2020 by nagahide13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 On 1/25/2020 at 11:03 AM, ramssuperbowl99 said: On 1/25/2020 at 10:58 AM, holt_bruce81 said: But how do these guys get in and Jim Edmonds doesn’t get enough votes to even remain on the ballot after 1 year? The BBWAA suck at their jobs. The same for guys like Cliff Lee and Kenny Lofton. They at least warrant(ed) consideration and discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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