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What should qualify a player for the Hall of Fame?


Hukos

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At a period of your career. Were you unstoppably good / did teams need to totally bend towards stopping you or going away from you?

That was always my argument for Harold Carmichael getting in.  You couldn’t really stop him. And that was the era you had the most to try to stop him.

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If "tell the story of the NFL" is essential then how can you ever justify putting in any offensive lineman? I don't believe in a hard number, but you need a sustained level of greatness at your position. The NFL actually needs more returners in the hall. There's no reason Dante Hall and Devin Hester shouldn't be in the Hall.

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26 minutes ago, Malik said:

If "tell the story of the NFL" is essential then how can you ever justify putting in any offensive lineman? I don't believe in a hard number, but you need a sustained level of greatness at your position. The NFL actually needs more returners in the hall. There's no reason Dante Hall and Devin Hester shouldn't be in the Hall.

It's tough though right? It's the same reasoning there are so few kickers in the HOF. They are specialty players. They do so very little compared to what the rest of the players on the team do. Now I'm of the opinion that the best of the best from those type of positions( kicker, punter, returner) should be included in the hall, and I always championed Ray Guy being voted in and not getting in on senior committee voting. To me that means you take only one and two at the very most from each era and put them in the Hall. Hester would be a yes and Hall would be a no.  

Edited by seriously27
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6 hours ago, Kiltman said:

At a period of your career. Were you unstoppably good / did teams need to totally bend towards stopping you or going away from you?

That was always my argument for Harold Carmichael getting in.  You couldn’t really stop him. And that was the era you had the most to try to stop him.

I feel like this is a great answer. If you changed the conversation and made games about you for an extended period of time (5-10 years) then you deserve to be in.

The general consensus is that you can be argued as one of the greatest of all time. Someone that will be remembered at your position for going above and beyond and outperforming your peers for more than just 1-2 seasons.

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4 minutes ago, lolsurebro said:

I feel like this is a great answer. If you changed the conversation and made games about you for an extended period of time (5-10 years) then you deserve to be in.

The general consensus is that you can be argued as one of the greatest of all time. Someone that will be remembered at your position for going above and beyond and outperforming your peers for more than just 1-2 seasons.

Thanks

 

it obviously needs to be tailored to each position.
Like a great offensive lineman is like a black hole. It’s not going to be blatant, you need to look at the absences mostly to get what you’re looking at. Pressures, sacks. You need to look at how dominating of a blocker they were. A lack of negative stats. Which is why so few get in, people don’t know how to evaluate them properly.

 

The league has unfortunately allowed a sub-class of HoF get in. Guys who didn’t have those dominant careers, but had notable championship performances. Eli Manning will be the poster boy for that. He was really not that good most of his career. But he got two lucky 4th quarter catches from his guys and now gets to be in the “you can’t write the story of the NFL without him” treatment. Aikman was not really a dominant player, but played his best in the SB. Lynn Swann, minus his super bowl catches has no jacket. I can’t say there is no way these guys should be in. I get it with some of them. But each one waters down what being a Hall of Famer means.

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16 minutes ago, Kiltman said:

Thanks

 

it obviously needs to be tailored to each position.
Like a great offensive lineman is like a black hole. It’s not going to be blatant, you need to look at the absences mostly to get what you’re looking at. Pressures, sacks. You need to look at how dominating of a blocker they were. A lack of negative stats. Which is why so few get in, people don’t know how to evaluate them properly.

 

The league has unfortunately allowed a sub-class of HoF get in. Guys who didn’t have those dominant careers, but had notable championship performances. Eli Manning will be the poster boy for that. He was really not that good most of his career. But he got two lucky 4th quarter catches from his guys and now gets to be in the “you can’t write the story of the NFL without him” treatment. Aikman was not really a dominant player, but played his best in the SB. Lynn Swann, minus his super bowl catches has no jacket. I can’t say there is no way these guys should be in. I get it with some of them. But each one waters down what being a Hall of Famer means.

You have to ask yourself -- If his opponent wasn't the Patriots/Tom Brady, would people still be saying that? Eli was a mediocre QB at best. He was vastly outperformed by many other quarterbacks in his time.

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10 hours ago, Kiltman said:

At a period of your career. Were you unstoppably good / did teams need to totally bend towards stopping you or going away from you?

That was always my argument for Harold Carmichael getting in.  You couldn’t really stop him. And that was the era you had the most to try to stop him.

This is the point I was trying to get at with my original post, but I was a bit too long winded to boil it down so succinctly. Thanks!

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22 hours ago, Bolts223 said:

The Super Bowl MVP is basically the Winning QB award barring extreme circumstances.

And let's be real - Justin Tuck probably should've gotten the MVP in SB42. Eli's stat line in that game was nothing special. It's not like when Nick Foles went completely off against them.

And the issue I have is with how people view QB's in a way that is incredibly simple minded and juvenile. You act like the Giants SB championships are an individual accolade for Eli. The NFL has 53 players on every roster, a head coach, coordinators and over a dozen positional coaches and assistants.

But yet we are actually going to say stuff like, "Eli won two SB's. Eli got his team to the SB. Eli is a great QB because he won two SB's."

Yeah let's forget about everything else that goes into an NFL team and focus on one player like we are talking about a PGA golfer winning the Masters or something.

 

 

 

Justin Tuck didn't make those immaculate throws in the Super Bowl either.   

And, I never said that getting to the Super Bowl wasn't a team effort.  

But, why do they even have the Super Bowl MVP award?  Because one player on the winning team makes the plays to secure the win in the biggest game in football.  

If a player wins that award at least once, it means something.  

I remember how many great players were on those New York rosters.  Justin Tuck, Antonio Pierce, Jason-Pierre Paul, Osi Umenyiora, etc.  

Those teams were stacked. 

But, Eli is simply one of the greatest postseason quarterbacks to have ever played the game, and if you disagree with that, then you're probably too young to remember that pair of Super Bowl runs.  

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5 hours ago, 40Year Pack Fan said:

Obviously winning championships isn't the most important thing, otherwise you wouldn't have Marino, Fouts, or Kelly in the hall....Three of which IMO were better QB's than Eli Manning....But Manning beat NE twice in the SB and comes from a football pedigree.....

Eli Manning was much better than Dan Fouts.  Not even close.  

He's obviously a better postseason QB than Jim Kelly was too.  

 

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You're arguing in favor of narratives mattering. Others think the narratives shouldn't matter for the HoF.

I've made my standards clear - were you someone opposing teams were fearful of? I don't believe Eli Manning ever was that kind of guy. He had a nice career, but having a nice career isn't enough.

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10 hours ago, lolsurebro said:

You have to ask yourself -- If his opponent wasn't the Patriots/Tom Brady, would people still be saying that? Eli was a mediocre QB at best. He was vastly outperformed by many other quarterbacks in his time.

Don't forget Favre,  Rodgers,  Romo,  Alex Smith,  Jeff Garcia, and Matt Ryan. He had to beat them too to get those rings.

Taking a pair of funky derelict 9 and 10 win teams to the Super Bowl and then:

  • beating one of the 10 best talented teams of all time for SB one
  • beating a 10-6, 15-1, 13-3, and 13-3 team with that 9-7 team means something

 

How many of you cried tears for poor little A-A-Ron who could not possibly beat a strong team on the road (Rodgers himself cried about it on the air)

Eli did that 4 times!

His 2 Super Bowls are worth way more than his brother's based on performance and competition.

Nothing in the regular season means more than 2 Super Bowls earned the hard way.

 

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QBs who have beaten 2 SB winning QBs in the playoffs on their own Super Bowl run:

  • Eli x2 (2 road 2 neutral)
  • Peyton 2015  (2 home games)
  • Brady 2014 (1 home 1 neutral)
  • Wilson 2013 (1 home 1 neutral)
  • Brees 2009  (1 home 1 neutral)

*note: This only counts facing QBs who have already won the Super Bowl not guys who win it later.

 

I will make a list of QBs who have beaten the regular season MVP QB on their Super Bowl run a little later.

  • Eli is 2 for 2
    • Brady and Rodgers
  • Montana has 3 (he was MVP for the 4th)
    • Anderson, Marino, and Esiason
  • Brady was beaten as MVP twice (Eli and Foles)  and beat the MVP 5 times.
    • Warner, Manning, Manning, Ryan, and Mahomes

 

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