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What should qualify a player for the Hall of Fame?


Hukos

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6 hours ago, SkippyX said:

Don't forget Favre,  Rodgers,  Romo,  Alex Smith,  Jeff Garcia, and Matt Ryan. He had to beat them too to get those rings.

Taking a pair of funky derelict 9 and 10 win teams to the Super Bowl and then:

  • beating one of the 10 best talented teams of all time for SB one
  • beating a 10-6, 15-1, 13-3, and 13-3 team with that 9-7 team means something

 

How many of you cried tears for poor little A-A-Ron who could not possibly beat a strong team on the road (Rodgers himself cried about it on the air)

Eli did that 4 times!

His 2 Super Bowls are worth way more than his brother's based on performance and competition.

Nothing in the regular season means more than 2 Super Bowls earned the hard way.

 

His defense held an all time offense to 14 points and then again to 17 points. Eli had to do the bare minimum to win the 2 sb games. SF and their ST choked away that NFCC.  He game managed vs Tampa and Dallas in 07, did much of nothing vs GB and relied on an all time defensive performance and the most flukiest play ever in 07.

Eli has gone 1 and done 4 times. He has won playoff games 2 of 6 times.

His 8 playoff wins, his defense never allowed more than 20 points and avged 15 ppg. Which would of ranked #1 in 2007 and #3 in 2011.

Eli was carried by a defense. Sure he made some plays here and there and he didnt play like eli usually plays in those 2 runs to mess things up. But he wasn't the driving factor.

Those 2 teams caught lighting in a bottle.

Take away the 2 rings and Eli is potentially an all time bust or close to it. When 2 games, can tilt the scale that drastically, you arent HOF. You are hall of fortunate or hall of anomaly.

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On 23/01/2020 at 7:59 PM, Bearerofnews said:

What qualifies as elite exactly for a qb? Random opinions, post seasons wins, carrying a team with productive and efficient play for the season, all pro, mvps. 

I mean what qualifies a QB as elite?

What are some standard top qb play statistics that most everyone would consider elite?

If we went with 4000 yds, atleast 25 tds, 100 passer rating and an 8.0 ypa.. would you say that season is a good barometer for an elite qb season?

If so... Peyton in his career has 2, Brady 2 and Brees 2. Between them 3, thats 6 total said seasons under that criteria. Thats out of 30 plus seasons combined. Rivers alone has 5 seasons that fit that criteria.

I know people will say that is cherry picked. It is. Because i dont know what the univeral standard is for considering a qb to be elite for the season. If somebody can direct me, without "opinion" being the factor, ill adjust the criteria and recalculate. But no one ever defines what makes someone elite other than "top 3 at that position" ok, great. But what makes someone top 3? Isnt it production? I mean the OP said Brown was considered the best. Why? Because of production. Sooo... what production for qbs do we look at to consider top 3?

I think you bring an interesting point about Rivers. He's very close to the HOF/should be in if you look at it only stats-wise. He had some monster seasons. 
But at some point, being very good statistically isn't enough. You have to be in the top tier at your position, and Rivers wasn't.
Because during his playing career he was always behing Brady, Peyton Manning, Brees and Rodgers. And just because of that fact, for me he wouldn't get in. How can you justify putting a QB in the HOF if there's clearly 4 QBs better than him at any given time/most of the time he was in the league? I would say All-Pros are a good way to determine if you were really elite that season. Rivers has none. Don't think anybody said "Rivers is the best QB in the NFL". Pretty sure arguments were made for the other 4. 
Plus he was drafted in the 1st round same year as B. Roethlisberger and E. Manning, making it hard not to compare those 3's career. And even though Rivers was just as good(Big Ben) or absolutely better (Manning) he doesn't have any SB ring, which hurts him a little. 
I think Rivers absolutely had the abilities to go to the HOF, and maybe would have gone playing for Pitt or NY Giants. But the way his career turned out, in SD/LA, he's just short IMO. 

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For me the biggest factor is positional dominance. I hate when players get in that were never (or hardly ever) at the top of the league. That said, accolades, championships, and stats do matter. But a guy with all of those still shouldn’t get in if he was never the best or even close to it. It’s my biggest gripe with Frank Gore, for example.

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The top factor should be top 5 for a certain period of time, with that time varying by position because certain positions have longer average careers than others. You'd have to be a dominant kicker for more years than a dominant RB.

Other factors such as MVPs, longevity and playoff performance should absolutely be considered as well. For example, Bo Jackson was elite but wasn't in the league long enough to get in the HOF. Frank Gore was probably only elite in 2006, but because he had such incredible longevity, he should be considered. Same with Eli - he was only elite in 2011 (and that might be arguable), but he should be considered based on longevity and his two outstanding playoff runs.

I can understand the argument for both sides for Gore and Eli, but honestly I am not sure how I would vote if I could.

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Here's one the thing about stats alone:

  • How many years of 5000+ yards and 33 TDs does Jameis need to get into the Hall of Fame?
    • Was this a Hall of Fame level year for him?

 

How many pro bowls are needed?

The pro bowl is a joke. Its a popularity contest to begin with and 40 players are named as replacements.

Some 2015 Pro Bowl QBs:  Winston, Bridgewater, Eli, Tyrod, and Derek Carr (edit: Carr had a very good year)

Eli had good TD numbers and solid passing yards but he was the 13th rated passer on a 6-10 team. 

Winston 2015 was

  • 16th in TDs
  • 32nd in completion %
  • 11th in yards
  • 5th in most interceptions
  • 9th in yards per attempt
  • 28th in passer rating
  • 12th in QBR
  • 16th in ANY/A
  • PRO BOWL QB

Andy Dalton absolutely earned a spot on one pro bowl team (2015) He was not named to it because he was injured? Those 13 games don't count?

  • You can make an argument for 2013 as well.

He did get named 3 other times without deserving any of those 3 honors.

  • Does he need 2 more fake pro bowls to get to 5 for the Hall of Fame? Does he need 6 fake pro bowls?
Edited by SkippyX
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Eli and Rivers each made the playoffs 6 times.

What do each of them have to show for it?

 

At what point does a bunch more regular season TDs, a bunch less interceptions, a higher passer rating, and 123-101 vs 117-117 make up for playoff dominance vs a playoff joke? Rivers was a horror show in the playoffs. His bad QB rating of 84.4 is a lie because its masked by a bunch of garbage time TDs in games where he did not belong on the field for 2 or 3 quarters. Eli Manning >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Philip Rivers. There is no doubt to this.

 

Rivers had 2 TDs and 5 picks in 4 home games in the playoffs.

  • His teams scored 78 points in 4 home games and that's counting the Billy Volek game winning drive when Rivers was hurt.

Rivers had 6 real passing TDs in 7 road playoff games.

The other 6 were 4th quarter TDs while trailing by 17+

8 legitimate passing TDs in 11 playoff games. Hall of Fame? xD

His playoff passer rating in actual competitive playoff football is something like 72.0

Its probably 100+ when down 17+ in the 4th quarter.

Edited by SkippyX
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Rivers beat the following QBs in the playoffs:

  • Vince Young in a 17-6 game
    • Rivers played well
  • Peyton Manning 2x
    • In SD he played really well but got hurt so Volek led the team to 7 of their 28 points
    • In Indy was the Darren Sproles game
      • Rivers had 217 yards and a pick with a 61.9 rating
  • Andy Dalton in a 27-10 win
    • Rivers tossed 127 yards and a TD while the run game went off for 190 yards
  • Lamar Jackson in the 7 DBs defense game
    • Rivers had 160 yards no TDs or picks with an 80 rating

 

What if anything am I supposed to consider as part of a Hall of Fame resume?

  • 2 weeks in the 2007 playoffs when he led his team to 38 points?

 

People (me included) have been taking shots at Lamar Jackson for 2 playoff games.

That's Rivers entire career!

Edited by SkippyX
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33 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

Here's one the thing about stats alone:

  • How many years of 5000+ yards and 33 TDs does Jameis need to get into the Hall of Fame?
    • Was this a Hall of Fame level year for him?

 

How many pro bowls are needed?

The pro bowl is a joke. Its a popularity contest to begin with and 40 players are named as replacements.

Some 2015 Pro Bowl QBs:  Winston, Bridgewater, Eli, Tyrod, and Derek Carr (edit: Carr had a very good year)

Eli had good TD numbers and solid passing yards but he was the 13th rated passer on a 6-10 team. 

Winston 2015 was

  • 16th in TDs
  • 32nd in completion %
  • 11th in yards
  • 5th in most interceptions
  • 9th in yards per attempt
  • 28th in passer rating
  • 12th in QBR
  • 16th in ANY/A
  • PRO BOWL QB

Andy Dalton absolutely earned a spot on one pro bowl team (2015) He was not named to it because he was injured? Those 13 games don't count?

  • You can make an argument for 2013 as well.

He did get named 3 other times without deserving any of those 3 honors.

  • Does he need 2 more fake pro bowls to get to 5 for the Hall of Fame? Does he need 6 fake pro bowls?

Pro Bowl is also a joke because you can be a Pro Bowler even if you weren't initially selected. For example, last year there were 5 Pro Bowlers selected who opted not to play. So they picked replacements. As a result, last season there were 11 Pro Bowl QBs! Eli was a Pro Bowler four times, but twice as a replacement.

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On 1/24/2020 at 1:58 PM, RamblinMan99 said:

Justin Tuck didn't make those immaculate throws in the Super Bowl either.   

What throw? The Tyree play? That wasn't a good throw, it was a fantastic catch. The only thing Eli did on that play was somehow avoided what should've been a for sure sack. If not for one of the most insane catches in SB history that ball is either incomplete or picked off by Rodney Harrison.

The Burress TD was basically the Giants offense tricking the NE coverage and Plaxico getting wide open in the end zone as a result. That's a throw any starting NFL QB is expected to be able to make.

On 1/24/2020 at 1:58 PM, RamblinMan99 said:

But, why do they even have the Super Bowl MVP award?  Because one player on the winning team makes the plays to secure the win in the biggest game in football.  

If a player wins that award at least once, it means something.  

Eh. A lot of the time QB's get in when they didn't actually play that well in the SB. (See: Peyton Manning in 06) I think Justin Tuck and the d-line was more instrumental to the Giants actually winning that game than Eli was.

Quote

But, Eli is simply one of the greatest postseason quarterbacks to have ever played the game, and if you disagree with that, then you're probably too young to remember that pair of Super Bowl runs.  

I remember them well. In 2007 the Giants never scored more than 23 points in any of their playoff games.

2011 I'll give Eli credit for balling out because he did. But so did Hakeem Nicks, so did Victor Cruz, so did Ahmad Bradshaw, so did JPP. So did that entire team basically.

And no that's laughable that you would say he's the best postseason QB ever. You realize that outside of 2007/2011 the Giants are 0-4 in the playoffs with Eli? He played like straight up garbage in 05, 08 and 2016 in the playoffs. He's not even as good as Joe Flacco in the playoffs. Let alone Brady or Montana.

 

Edit: Just want to add that Jim Plunkett was MVP of SB 15 and put up a 97.2 passer rating (In 1983 which is insane) in SB 18. Only reason he didn't win MVP of that game was because Marcus Allen went off.

Plunkett didn't sniff the hall. Neither should Eli.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, SkippyX said:

Rivers beat the following QBs in the playoffs:

  • Vince Young in a 17-6 game
    • Rivers played well
  • Peyton Manning 2x
    • In SD he played really well but got hurt so Volek led the team to 7 of their 28 points
    • In Indy was the Darren Sproles game
      • Rivers had 217 yards and a pick with a 61.9 rating
  • Andy Dalton in a 27-10 win
    • Rivers tossed 127 yards and a TD while the run game went off for 190 yards
  • Lamar Jackson in the 7 DBs defense game
    • Rivers had 160 yards no TDs or picks with an 80 rating

 

What if anything am I supposed to consider as part of a Hall of Fame resume?

  • 2 weeks in the 2007 playoffs when he led his team to 38 points?

 

People (me included) have been taking shots at Lamar Jackson for 2 playoff games.

That's Rivers entire career!

Wrong, again... Eli in his playoff losses avged 11 ppg while defense gave up 26 ppg. Rivers avged 19 ppg while his defense gave up 27 ppg.

 

The whole "garbage" stats is lazy. Especially when Rivers has the most 2nd half comebacks when trailing by 16 points or more in NFL history.

 

Eli's team avg 100 yds rushing in their playoff losses.

Rivers team avg 68 yds rushing in their playoff losses.

 

Rivers has lost to 2nd ranked defense, 4th ranked, 1st ranked, 1st ranked, 22nd ranked and 7th ranked. Avg of 6th ranked scoring defense.

Eli has lost to 21st, 4th, 15th and 5th. Avg 11th ranked scoring defense.

 

Eli has won vs an avg of the 10th ranked defense in ppg. While his run game has avged 110 yds rushing. While scoring 23 ppg. 

Rivers has won vs avg of 4th ranked defense in ppg. While his run game has avged 123 yd rushing.  While scoring 23 ppg. 

 

Rivers has done more vs tougher competition with less help in his losses.  Eli and Rivers put up same amount of ppg in wins, Rivers with more help and Eli vs easier competition.

Eli has had it relatively easy. You do a great job with presentation, as ive said before, aesthetically. But at times, you really miss with the content.

Rivers has had it as tough as it comes in the playoffs. I'm not sure if any qb has had it tougher who has atleast 3 playoff losses.

 

Edited by Bearerofnews
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6 hours ago, MagicMT said:

I think you bring an interesting point about Rivers. He's very close to the HOF/should be in if you look at it only stats-wise. He had some monster seasons. 
But at some point, being very good statistically isn't enough. You have to be in the top tier at your position, and Rivers wasn't.
Because during his playing career he was always behing Brady, Peyton Manning, Brees and Rodgers. And just because of that fact, for me he wouldn't get in. How can you justify putting a QB in the HOF if there's clearly 4 QBs better than him at any given time/most of the time he was in the league? I would say All-Pros are a good way to determine if you were really elite that season. Rivers has none. Don't think anybody said "Rivers is the best QB in the NFL". Pretty sure arguments were made for the other 4. 
Plus he was drafted in the 1st round same year as B. Roethlisberger and E. Manning, making it hard not to compare those 3's career. And even though Rivers was just as good(Big Ben) or absolutely better (Manning) he doesn't have any SB ring, which hurts him a little. 
I think Rivers absolutely had the abilities to go to the HOF, and maybe would have gone playing for Pitt or NY Giants. But the way his career turned out, in SD/LA, he's just short IMO. 

I can respect this, i dont agree. But i respect that perspective.

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4 hours ago, childofpudding said:

Pro Bowl is also a joke because you can be a Pro Bowler even if you weren't initially selected. For example, last year there were 5 Pro Bowlers selected who opted not to play. So they picked replacements. As a result, last season there were 11 Pro Bowl QBs! Eli was a Pro Bowler four times, but twice as a replacement.

Probowl is a joke if you look at who has been a couple times in their career. When players have been 8, 9, 10, etc times. It is a very valid argument.

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4 hours ago, SkippyX said:

Rivers beat the following QBs in the playoffs:

  • Vince Young in a 17-6 game
    • Rivers played well
  • Peyton Manning 2x
    • In SD he played really well but got hurt so Volek led the team to 7 of their 28 points
    • In Indy was the Darren Sproles game
      • Rivers had 217 yards and a pick with a 61.9 rating
  • Andy Dalton in a 27-10 win
    • Rivers tossed 127 yards and a TD while the run game went off for 190 yards
  • Lamar Jackson in the 7 DBs defense game
    • Rivers had 160 yards no TDs or picks with an 80 rating

 

What if anything am I supposed to consider as part of a Hall of Fame resume?

  • 2 weeks in the 2007 playoffs when he led his team to 38 points?

 

People (me included) have been taking shots at Lamar Jackson for 2 playoff games.

That's Rivers entire career!

To be fair - if I was deciding who would be in the Hall neither Rivers nor Eli would be in. But letting Eli in the hall merely because of two playoff runs lowers the bar so significantly that you have to start considering guys who are statistically much better QB’s than he is. 

If Joe Flacco is somehow the QB of another SB winning team do we put him in? What about Nick Foles?

Edited by Bolts223
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4 hours ago, SkippyX said:

Eli and Rivers each made the playoffs 6 times.

What do each of them have to show for it?

 

At what point does a bunch more regular season TDs, a bunch less interceptions, a higher passer rating, and 123-101 vs 117-117 make up for playoff dominance vs a playoff joke? Rivers was a horror show in the playoffs. His bad QB rating of 84.4 is a lie because its masked by a bunch of garbage time TDs in games where he did not belong on the field for 2 or 3 quarters. Eli Manning >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Philip Rivers. There is no doubt to this.

 

Rivers had 2 TDs and 5 picks in 4 home games in the playoffs.

  • His teams scored 78 points in 4 home games and that's counting the Billy Volek game winning drive when Rivers was hurt.

Rivers had 6 real passing TDs in 7 road playoff games.

The other 6 were 4th quarter TDs while trailing by 17+

8 legitimate passing TDs in 11 playoff games. Hall of Fame? xD

His playoff passer rating in actual competitive playoff football is something like 72.0

Its probably 100+ when down 17+ in the 4th quarter.

The fact you said Eli is playoff dominance is laughable.

Eli has gone 1 and done, 4 of 6 times. Rivers 2 of 6 times. In no world, is going 1 and done 66% of the time dominance 😂. 

Also, you dont get to "take away" production because you deem it "garbage" time. Where was eli's production when his team scored 0 or 11 or 13 in losses. Avg margin of defeat for Eli is 15 ppg.

Rivers avg margin of defeat in the playoffs is 7 ppg. 

Eli has had 8 of 12 playoff games with 80 or higher passer rating.

Rivers has had 7 of 11 of same games.

 

The disparity of Rivers over Eli in the regular season is astronomical. It really is leaps and bounds when breaking down efficiency with volume stats, per game, per season stats. Also when measuring specific barometers of what qualifies as elite play.

Edited by Bearerofnews
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