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What should qualify a player for the Hall of Fame?


Hukos

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1 hour ago, Bearerofnews said:

Probowl is a joke if you look at who has been a couple times in their career. When players have been 8, 9, 10, etc times. It is a very valid argument.

I would just put it way down on the list of factors that matter. Being in the top one-third of QBs - which is the criteria if 11 make the Probowl - means very little to nothing.

I havent looked at Rivers but if the large majority of his PBs were not as a replacement, that would matter more to me. Indicates top 6 QB for that season over several seasons.

Both Eli and Rivers are borderline cases imo, but I think Eli has a better chance of getting in because HOF voters value playoff success so highly.

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59 minutes ago, childofpudding said:

I would just put it way down on the list of factors that matter. Being in the top one-third of QBs - which is the criteria if 11 make the Probowl - means very little to nothing.

I havent looked at Rivers but if the large majority of his PBs were not as a replacement, that would matter more to me. Indicates top 6 QB for that season over several seasons.

Both Eli and Rivers are borderline cases imo, but I think Eli has a better chance of getting in because HOF voters value playoff success so highly.

Maybe it's just me, but it's crazy how much value essentially 2 games can hold.

Hypothetically let's say it was Rivers with 2 rings, would he be borderline or a sure fire first ballot and in the argument for top 6 to 8 qbs all time.

In retrospect if Eli didn't have 2 rings would he be borderline or looked at as one of the biggest disappointment #1 overall picks all time.

Crazy how perception works i guess.

Edited by Bearerofnews
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My criteria is that you were 

1. Considered the best at your position in the league at one point. This comes in the form of multiple MVP’s or all Pros

2. Have high stat averages (not necessarily longevity) 

3. Have some major achievement like a Super Bowl or an MVP. Barring that you should probably have to be top 10 of all time at your position. 
 

To me s disqualifies is something like you lowering the standards for your position in the Hall. 

Also historically how you measure up to your peers in the Hall. 
 

Imo Eli would be the worst QB in the Hall if he got in and many voters feel the same 

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2 hours ago, Bolts223 said:

What throw? The Tyree play? That wasn't a good throw, it was a fantastic catch. The only thing Eli did on that play was somehow avoided what should've been a for sure sack. If not for one of the most insane catches in SB history that ball is either incomplete or picked off by Rodney Harrison.

 

Yeah, he avoided a sack in the pocket and still got the football off.  

Deshaun Watson does something like that and everybody wants to give him credit for making a great play, but not Eli.  

 

2 hours ago, Bolts223 said:

 

Eh. A lot of the time QB's get in when they didn't actually play that well in the SB. (See: Peyton Manning in 06) 

 

Uh, Peyton Manning didn't play well in either Super Bowl 48 or 50 and didn't win MVP in those games either.  

Bad example.  

2 hours ago, Bolts223 said:

 

And no that's laughable that you would say he's the best postseason QB ever. You realize that outside of 2007/2011 the Giants are 0-4 in the playoffs with Eli? He played like straight up garbage in 05, 08 and 2016 in the playoffs. He's not even as good as Joe Flacco in the playoffs. Let alone Brady or Montana.

 

I never said that he was the best postseason QB ever.  I said that he was one of the best  postseason QBs in history, and that is true.  

Eli has a winning postseason record with a win percentage well over 70%, and he holds the all time record for most passing yards in a single postseason  

His brother Peyton holds the all time record for most postseason losses for a QB.  

 

2 hours ago, Bolts223 said:

 

Edit: Just want to add that Jim Plunkett was MVP of SB 15 and put up a 97.2 passer rating (In 1983 which is insane) in SB 18. Only reason he didn't win MVP of that game was because Marcus Allen went off.

Plunkett didn't sniff the hall. Neither should Eli.

Don't know how anybody could compare Eli Manning to Jim Plunkett.  

Plunkett had a lower than average TD to INT ratio.  

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3 minutes ago, RamblinMan99 said:

No it isn't.  

The majority of INTs do fall on the QB.  

When you're winning, you don't throw much. Therefore you won't throw many TDs (you also won't throw many Interceptions). When you're losing, you need to throw more, so due to a higher volume of passes, you're going to have more interceptions.

TD:INT ratio is literally meaningless and irrelevant because it doesn't tell you anything about how the game went. What information is there to be gained from TD:INT ratio other than, their team as a whole is really good?

Edited by Hukos
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21 hours ago, SkippyX said:

QBs who have beaten 2 SB winning QBs in the playoffs on their own Super Bowl run:

  • Eli x2 (2 road 2 neutral)
  • Peyton 2015  (2 home games)
  • Brady 2014 (1 home 1 neutral)
  • Wilson 2013 (1 home 1 neutral)
  • Brees 2009  (1 home 1 neutral)

*note: This only counts facing QBs who have already won the Super Bowl not guys who win it later.

 

I will make a list of QBs who have beaten the regular season MVP QB on their Super Bowl run a little later.

  • Eli is 2 for 2
    • Brady and Rodgers
  • Montana has 3 (he was MVP for the 4th)
    • Anderson, Marino, and Esiason
  • Brady was beaten as MVP twice (Eli and Foles)  and beat the MVP 5 times.
    • Warner, Manning, Manning, Ryan, and Mahomes

 

Joe Flacco beat both Manning and Brady.

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22 minutes ago, RamblinMan99 said:

Namath was a multi time AFL MVP. Eli never was in the discussion.

Namath was the first QB to pass for 4000 yards. Eli never set a record ever. 
 

Namath was an NFL All Pro and an All AFL. Eli never was even close to that discussion. 
 

Namath led the NFL in yards and TD’s. Eli’s only ever led the NFL in INT’s. 
 

Only someone who knows literally zero about Namath’s career would make that comparison 

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1 hour ago, RamblinMan99 said:

Yeah, he avoided a sack in the pocket and still got the football off.  

Deshaun Watson does something like that and everybody wants to give him credit for making a great play, but not Eli.  

Because it wasn't a good throw. Watson usually makes good throws and his WR's aren't making insane acrobatic catches off of their helmets. You realize that if you simulated that throw 100 times Rodney Harrison probably picks it more often than Tyree catches it right?

1 hour ago, RamblinMan99 said:

Uh, Peyton Manning didn't play well in either Super Bowl 48 or 50 and didn't win MVP in those games either.  

Bad example.  

Yeah when your team loses 43-8 you usually don't win MVP. Regardless of what position you are.

Von Miller was one of the examples I have of an "exception." He literally created more points for the Broncos in that game than the offense did. Strip sack fumble-6 and another strip sack that gave the Broncos the ball inside the 10 which eventually led to the game-sealing TD. 

1 hour ago, RamblinMan99 said:

I never said that he was the best postseason QB ever.  I said that he was one of the best  postseason QBs in history, and that is true.  

Eli has a winning postseason record with a win percentage well over 70%, and he holds the all time record for most passing yards in a single postseason  

His brother Peyton holds the all time record for most postseason losses for a QB.   

He's not though.

Only postseason he really balled out was 2011. 2007 he had some nice moments but I would call his play good rather than great.

And pretty much every other time the Giants ever made the playoffs outside of 2007/2011 he played terribly. His career postseason stats aren't really any better than his regular season stats. He just had some pretty high high's and some pretty low low's.

 

1 hour ago, RamblinMan99 said:

Don't know how anybody could compare Eli Manning to Jim Plunkett.  

Plunkett had a lower than average TD to INT ratio.  

Plunkett's performance in SB15 was better than anything Eli ever did. 145 passer rating in 1980. 

Eli has better career bulk stats for sure. They have the same exact win % (Literally both are .500) and a lot of the non-bulk stats can just be accounted for by era. Plunkett also spent the first part of his career playing for some truly awful Patriots teams that were worse than even the terrible Giants teams Eli had to deal with towards the end of his career.

And it's not like Plunkett almost made the hall, he didn't even come close. 

If Eli gets in (Which he probably will because most fans/writers are stupid) it will because of his last name, the fact that he plays for the Giants and that beating an undefeated Pats team is sexier than beating the Eagles and Redskins. (That 83 Redskins team was a huge powerhouse btw. Just forgotten)

But don't kid yourself - if he gets in he'll be by BY FAR the worst QB in the hall and he will significantly lower the bar. Hall of fame is meant for the best players of each era, Eli is definitely not one of the best QB's of his era.

Edited by Bolts223
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2 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

Jim Kelly took his team to the Super Bowl four years in a row. 

Are you serious? Or just "ramblin'" 

This is mostly false.

First, Reich won 2 of 3 playoff games in 1992.

Second, A loaded Hall of Fame Bills team

  • Levy
  • Reed
  • Lofton
  • Thomas
  • Smith

with a deep roster of pro bowl players got to 4 Super Bowls.

 

Kelly was great in the 1990 playoffs but came up just short in the Super Bowl (relying on a 47 yarder on grass is not exactly ensuring a win) 126.6 AFCCG passer rating

  • Full 100% QB credit for 1990 and his 5 TDs to 2 picks

In 1991 he had 5 TDs to 9 picks in the playoffs  (3 to 5 leading to that Super Bowl)

The Bills team won 10-7 in the AFCCG. Kelly went 13-25 for 115 with no TDs and 2 picks for a 31.6 rating

  • He gets about 20% QB credit for this playoff season

In 1992 Frank Reich had 6 TDs to 1 pick in the first 2 playoff games including a legendary 35-3 comeback.

Kelly played in the AFCCG and went 12-22 for 195 yards with a TD and 2 picks for a 71 rating

He lasted 7 passes into the Super Bowl with 3 turnovers.

Kelly dropped back 34 times in the playoffs and turned the ball over 5 times.

  • He gets ZERO QB Credit for 1992

Kelly had a very good game against the Raiders in 1993 with 2 TDs no picks 287 yards and a 113 rating.

He went 17 for 27 for 160 yards no TDs and no picks in the AFCCG. (tourist) 79.2 rating

He only had 1 turnover this time but he led his team to 13 points in another blowout loss,

  • He gets somewhere around 40% credit for this playoff run.

AFCCG totals  in 5 games  (they also faced Cincy in 1988)

  • 78 of 129 for 917 yards 4 TDs and 8 picks for a 66.6 rting

Super Bowl totals in 4 games

  • 81 of 125 for 829 yards 2 TDs 7 picks and 3 fumbles lost for a 56.9 rating
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Jim Plunkett was very good in 1980 including absolutely killing my Eagles.

  • I remember being left with lots of green and white cupcakes because everyone left the Super Bowl party in the 3rd quarter.

He was like Trent Dilfer in 1983 and anyone saying otherwise is mistaken or ignorant or both.

 

And Eli will never be the worst NY QB in the HoF as long as Broadway Joe is there.

Edited by SkippyX
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1968 AFL QB leaders

Lamonica 206-416 3245 yards 25 TDs 15 picks  11-2 record(real MVP)

Dawson 131-224 2190 yards 17 TDs 9 picks  11-2 record

Namath 187-380 3147 yards 15 TDs to 17 picks  11-3 record (popular sportswriter choice)

 

Stuff that useless MVP NY popularity contest award. Lamonica was far superior. Dawson was incredibly efficient (98 rating in 1968)

Namath was in New York and an international man of mystery.

Edited by SkippyX
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