J-ALL-DAY Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 On 1/25/2020 at 7:30 PM, Yin-Yang said: Maybe Mahomes, but it’s way early on him. Kelce/Sherman are the other two to even be in the discussion but I think their chances are pretty slim. Sherman’s resume doesn’t rely heavily on this SB, I think he needs to be one of those types of guys that lingers at a high level if he wants a bust. Kelce could use a ring but I think more dominant seasons would do more for his chances than a Lombardi. Sherman's chances are slim? Nah, he's going to get in. Dude is 31 years old playing a position that many at that age fall off yet he made All Pro. He's pretty much a lock to get in at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom cody Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 Mahomes, Kelce and Sherman. As to the non players I think Andy Reid becomes a hall of famer should he win the Super Bowl as coach. Not sure about John Lynch if the 49ers win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 Conversation has to start with Pat Mahomes, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 9 hours ago, J-ALL-DAY said: Sherman's chances are slim? Nah, he's going to get in. Dude is 31 years old playing a position that many at that age fall off yet he made All Pro. He's pretty much a lock to get in at this point. I don’t think Sherman is a lock. He’s got a good resume (championship, x3 first team All-Pro, x2 second team All-Pro, int leader in 2013, couple game winning plays in the playoffs) but he’s got things against him too. Only x5 Pro-Bowls, not high on the all-time INT list (t-128 at this time), has the stigma of being a zone-specific corner, and most of all IMO - his good/great years seem to revolve around when he has lots of defensive talent around him. Not a shoe-in IYAM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-ALL-DAY Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 14 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: I don’t think Sherman is a lock. He’s got a good resume (championship, x3 first team All-Pro, x2 second team All-Pro, int leader in 2013, couple game winning plays in the playoffs) but he’s got things against him too. Only x5 Pro-Bowls, not high on the all-time INT list (t-128 at this time), has the stigma of being a zone-specific corner, and most of all IMO - his good/great years seem to revolve around when he has lots of defensive talent around him. Not a shoe-in IYAM. And he has nothing to do with the great defenses he's been involved in? It's only a coincidence? No, if he's not a lock or near lock, then what the hell is the point of the HOF? And this zone corner crap is hilarious and almost as if people don't understand the cover 3 principles. Often times in that scheme, a corner is more on an island than any other scheme. Being 128 in career INTs or whatever shouldn't matter much as people look at other stats to value corners. His completions allowed per snap, completion percentage against and QB rating allowed since he's come into the league rank very high. The voters now will get those stats to judge and not just career INTs or what not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 1 minute ago, J-ALL-DAY said: And he has nothing to do with the great defenses he's been involved in? It's only a coincidence? He’s a piece of those defenses. But it seems when he’s there without those pieces, he’s not an elite CB anymore. 1 minute ago, J-ALL-DAY said: No, if he's not a lock or near lock, then what the hell is the point of the HOF? Is this rhetorical? If Sherman isn’t a HOF lock right now, then what’s the point of the HOF? That’s seriously a question? 1 minute ago, J-ALL-DAY said: And this zone corner crap is hilarious and almost as if people don't understand the cover 3 principles. Often times in that scheme, a corner is more on an island than any other scheme. You believe that a corner in a cover 3 defense has more or similar responsibilities to a corner that plays in a heavy man scheme (especially an elite one that follows the best receiver)? Because they don’t. I know Sherman isn’t incapable of playing man when he needs to, he did it a decent amount in a season or two - I forget the exact season - and had good success. But it’s still not going to be seen as impressive as doing what Revis did or what Gilmore just did in 2019. 1 minute ago, J-ALL-DAY said: Being 128 in career INTs or whatever shouldn't matter much as people look at other stats to value corners. His completions allowed per snap, completion percentage against and QB rating allowed since he's come into the league rank very high. The voters now will get those stats to judge and not just career INTs or what not. Okay, and those things can go on his resume, but for a guy that has largely had less responsibilities in his defenses than some of his peers - he’s become less of a ballhawk. That doesn’t just get to be dismissed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoleINGout Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 Technically all of them. Buuuuuuuut specifically: Sherman Reid Mahomes Kelce Kittle Joe Staley Mitchell Schwartz ...Tyreek Hill Nick Bosa... Chris Jones DeForest Buckner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoleINGout Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 1 hour ago, ET80 said: Conversation has to start with Pat Mahomes, right? Sherm and Reid. On 1/25/2020 at 10:30 PM, Yin-Yang said: Maybe Mahomes, but it’s way early on him. Kelce/Sherman are the other two to even be in the discussion but I think their chances are pretty slim. Sherman’s resume doesn’t rely heavily on this SB, I think he needs to be one of those types of guys that lingers at a high level if he wants a bust. Kelce could use a ring but I think more dominant seasons would do more for his chances than a Lombardi. Sherm is already a HoFer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 3 minutes ago, DoleINGout said: Sherm is already a HoFer. Is he though? I mean, is Darrelle Revis a HoFer? Because those two are the points of comparison... Maybe I'm judging him too hard, I dunno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, DoleINGout said: Sherm is already a HoFer. Sherm is not already a HOFer. Though I did forget about Suggs. He’s probably going to get in, but not for anything that happens in this SB. Edited January 27, 2020 by Yin-Yang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hukos Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 28 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said: And this zone corner crap is hilarious and almost as if people don't understand the cover 3 principles. Often times in that scheme, a corner is more on an island than any other scheme. There are lot of people who watch a lot of football but don't really understand it. Case in point, the idea that it's easier to be a zone corner than it is to be a man corner is a myth that perpetuates football fans everywhere even though it's not true. The responsibilities are different, but as a zone corner, if you don't have a high football IQ/ good communications with the rest of your defense, you're going to get roasted. See the Texans game where Deshaun Watson completely went off against the Falcons - that's what happens when you have bad zone coverage/bad zone corners. My Falcons run a similar defense conceptually to what SF is doing (Cover 3 zone stuff), although as you can tell, we're nowhere near as good at it as SF is. A lot of that is because we don't have the horses that SF does on defense. Cover 3 zone isn't a magic button that you press to turn mediocre players into a productive defense, you still have to have guys that can play for it to work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-ALL-DAY Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 24 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: He’s a piece of those defenses. But it seems when he’s there without those pieces, he’s not an elite CB anymore. Is this rhetorical? If Sherman isn’t a HOF lock right now, then what’s the point of the HOF? That’s seriously a question? You believe that a corner in a cover 3 defense has more or similar responsibilities to a corner that plays in a heavy man scheme (especially an elite one that follows the best receiver)? Because they don’t. I know Sherman isn’t incapable of playing man when he needs to, he did it a decent amount in a season or two - I forget the exact season - and had good success. But it’s still not going to be seen as impressive as doing what Revis did or what Gilmore just did in 2019. Okay, and those things can go on his resume, but for a guy that has largely had less responsibilities in his defenses than some of his peers - he’s become less of a ballhawk. That doesn’t just get to be dismissed. Okay, to your last point. Do you not think getting targeted less as his career progressed has something to do with his INTs going down? I mean he's not any less of a ballhawk now than he was before. Throw at him enough, and he will get his hands on the ball just fine. First part, when has he been there and the pieces not be there? Sorry, not sure how to answer that. I mean even last year before he got banged up at the end of the season, he was having a Sherman-esque type of season. Barely allowed any catches in the first half of the season and that was with a below average pass rush. Here is the thing, even the teams that run the most pure man coverage, don't do it as much as you think. League wide average of man vs zone is pretty much 50/50 or even slightly more for zone coverage. Gilmore/Revis had different responsibilities. If you want to say what they did was tougher, that's fine. But Sherman played plenty of man coverage throughout his career and was just fine at it. He has his struggles vs quicker guys that can get inside of him, but overall he's damn good at it. In fact, very little chance you complete something deep on him. And I'm aware Adams was able to do so last game but that was because Sherman got a little selfish trying to jump the route for an easy INT that got him in trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-ALL-DAY Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 9 minutes ago, Hukos said: There are lot of people who watch a lot of football but don't really understand it. Case in point, the idea that it's easier to be a zone corner than it is to be a man corner is a myth that perpetuates football fans everywhere even though it's not true. The responsibilities are different, but as a zone corner, if you don't have a high football IQ/ good communications with the rest of your defense, you're going to get roasted. See the Texans game where Deshaun Watson completely went off against the Falcons - that's what happens when you have bad zone coverage/bad zone corners. My Falcons run a similar defense conceptually to what SF is doing (Cover 3 zone stuff), although as you can tell, we're nowhere near as good at it as SF is. A lot of that is because we don't have the horses that SF does on defense. Cover 3 zone isn't a magic button that you press to turn mediocre players into a productive defense, you still have to have guys that can play for it to work. Absolutely. And we run plenty of pattern matching that turns into basically man coverage for the corner. And with playing a lot of single high, the corners on one side can be in zone while the corner on the opposite end can be on a complete island. That's why it's ludicrous to just call Sherman or anyone in this scheme just zone corners. And being able to play zone coverage isn't all that easy as you mentioned. You have to have great instincts and IQ. Asomugha was a great press man cover corner, yet struggled mightily in zone. Put Rhodes in press man and he's still okay at it, put him in off coverage or playing zone and he can be exposed. It's just not a coincidence that Sherman has led some of the best passing defenses in the last decade. Sure he's had other talented players, but he's a big part of why the Niners were so good in the secondary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoleINGout Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 34 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: Sherm is not already a HOFer. He already will be at this point, so I'll agree to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoleINGout Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 43 minutes ago, DoleINGout said: Technically all of them. Buuuuuuuut specifically: Sherman Reid Mahomes Kelce Kittle Joe Staley Mitchell Schwartz ...Tyreek Hill Nick Bosa... Chris Jones DeForest Buckner Robbie Gould and Fred Warner also added to the list as candidates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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