TCMD Discussion (Welcome Antoine Brooks JR)

[ravens5520]

Patrick Queen just went to the NY Giants. I don’t see us having that decision of Murray being available at this time. 

 

So no one is on Justin Jefferson? Possible 2nd round trade up target? 

[diamondbull424]

13 minutes ago, ravens5520 said:

So no one is on Justin Jefferson? Possible 2nd round trade up target? 

I’m sure someone can make a case for him, I’m just not particularly a fan. I haven’t necessarily done a deep dive on him, but it’s mainly because every time I sit down to watch him, I get bored. I just don’t see a guy who stands out. He’s also a pure slot guy only. I don’t see 4.4 speed when I look at him on tape either, he looks like a mid 4.5 guy on tape. He’s an overall solid guy, but I feel he’s benefiting some from the LSU hype machine. I think Tee Higgins is the superior talent at WR, I would also elevate Brandon Aiyuk and Jalen Raegor above Jefferson. Would probably prefer DPJ over him as well even considering the lack of production. This is without me having looked at the Baylor WR Mims who showed some splashy measurables.

So for me, I wouldn’t be in the Jefferson camp unless we needed exclusively an inside WR. The thing about Jeudy is he could do both and was an elite route runner, it was easy to see his transition within our offense.

Beyond that I would still consider trading up depending on how the WR board shakes out, but it would be for Aiyuk or Raegor. I go back and forth on which player I prefer, but I slightly lean toward Brandon Aiyuk because of his increased length and I believe he might be a little more agile/flexible. So if he can develop his release, I think he might be the more special player.

[Danand]

I am with DB424 here

I think the talent Jefferson presents is the same we can find in round 3-4. Good receiver, but not enough upside for a 1. round pick. I have Mims, Raegor, Aiyuk, Hamler above Jefferson. Mims is the guy with most upside, he can stretch the field and win on the outside and he will immediately be a blocker on the perimeter at the level of Boykin. 

Raegor, Aiyuk and Hamler can all be returners which gives them another dimension as well.

[diamondbull424]

7 hours ago, Danand said:

I think Epenesa is the superior talent to Baun. If Baun is still there at 28 and there are no good offers for trading back, I think Baun is a great concellation price. We would get a good, scheme versatile, intelligent football player that could be moved around. I see him as an allround off ball linebacker, and while I don't want him to get up on the line across an OT, that is close to the only thing I don't want to see. 

Bowser and Baun on twist and stunts or putting them against tight ends presents a great opportunity for our defense.

Obviously I disagree and I disagreed before the combine where AJE showed up lighter than his projected weight and ran slower (at that lower weight even) than anticipated. Had Epenesa showed up at 290 and had the combine he had, I would’ve thought nothing of it. But now you have to wonder if he can add 15 lbs and maintain his current athleticism.

But he proved with that display that he’s most certainly NOT an edge candidate at the next level. So especially in this mock where the Ravens have McCoy, Allen, Williams, and Pierce inside. There’s simply no path for Epenesa to gain weight and compete for an interior rush role which is where he will have to find himself at the next level.

Whereas Baun I thought was the superior player prior to the combine due to his combination of technique and athleticism... and he did nothing to make me believe that wouldn’t be the case at the next level. He’s simply not rushing the passer as much as Epenesa because he plays a lot of LB and drops into coverage at a quality amount, yet when he’s rushing the passer he has better pass rush grades than AJE. He destroys TE blocks with his power (24 bench reps) and OTs can’t seem  to keep up with his speed (4.65s forty and 7s cone).

Epenesa has good length and technique, which with longer armed tackles at the NFL level he will find it hard to get into their frame and use his technique to disengage early, making him a clear regress candidate at the next level. His best hope is moving inside so that he matches up against the shorter armed IOL and use his length/technique to become a quick gap penetrating DT/5 tech. A team will have to figure out how to deploy him inside though because he’s a tweener with no clear path to success.

edit: IRL I would for sure have Epenesa on my draft board if we traded down into the second round for more ammunition (or traded up from our 2nd), I do still like him and find him intriguing as an inside rush candidate but considering the team we’ve built in this mock, Baun is the superior fit... though now it seems many other teams have come around on his talents so it may not matter if he goes to Seattle. Might considering trading a 5th to move pass them and secure him.

Edited March 4, 2020 by diamondbull424

[diamondbull424]

13 minutes ago, Danand said:

I am with DB424 here

I think the talent Jefferson presents is the same we can find in round 3-4. Good receiver, but not enough upside for a 1. round pick. I have Mims, Raegor, Aiyuk, Hamler above Jefferson. Mims is the guy with most upside, he can stretch the field and win on the outside and he will immediately be a blocker on the perimeter at the level of Boykin. 

Raegor, Aiyuk and Hamler can all be returners which gives them another dimension as well.

Completely forgot about mentioning Hamler. He’s very explosive on tape.

@DreamKid I know you’ve mentioned you’re a fan of Jefferson, perhaps you can better argue his credentials here above some of these other WRs @Danand and I have mentioned.

[Danand]

2 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Completely forgot about mentioning Hamler. He’s very explosive on tape.

@DreamKid I know you’ve mentioned you’re a fan of Jefferson, perhaps you can better argue his credentials here above some of these other WRs @Danand and I have mentioned.

I don't buy the "Hamler/Hollywood" are slot guys. They can play on the outside and presents matchup problems. They are due to their size limited as blockers, but their big play ability shouldn't be underestimated. Hamler would at worst be a backup to Marquise Brown as a field stretcher, but they could also work off each other. Somebody mentioned they will have difficulties beating press coverage - again, I don't buy that, they gain easy separation due to their speed and it takes just one play for a cornerback to overcommit to his press and those two are off for a long TD (if Lamar spot them). 

Obviously they lack the physicality and ability to win jump balls - the Chiefs didn't suffer with their slim speedsters and Marquise Brown certainly didn't struggle in a year where he wasn't 100%.

If Dreamkid can sell Jefferson, I don't mind him, but I have a feeling he is the sort of "USC 2. round" prospect that we never take, Robert Woods, Marquise Lee etc. Good receivers but not great or with an elite skillset to separate them from others.

I think DPJ offers more potential than Tee Higgins, but we never saw it because he played in an odd offense. I feel like I watched a lot of snaps from him, where he was open but the play went another way. Still, his lack of production worry me.

[ravens5520]

I’m agreeing with a lot of this

1st round: Johnathan Taylor RB, Zach Baun Edge, Jaylon Reagor WR, AJ Terrell CB (but we did sign Jimmy back) and Antoine Winfield Safety

• Send me some short lists.. who would you prefer to see us move up for? I’m on board with Baun if he lasts to picks 20-23 range. Cheap move up. 
   
• Also what’s your short list if we stay put and spend use our draft capital in the 2nd to move up. Im almost feeling this path if we miss out on some key targets on potential trade ups
   

The way WRs are flying off the board, id expect Reagor to go before 28 and possibly Jonathan Taylor. Would we move up and be happy landing either?
 

• A second round WR that we move up for could be a play for us. I did like Mims appearance at the combine, but I wonder how far his value has risen. I’ve seen mocks with him still a 3rd rounder and some showing him up to the high second

Edited March 4, 2020 by ravens5520

[ravens5520]

Giants at 20 are offering their pick up.

 

It would take 28, 126(4th) & 148(top 5th rounder) for 20 to move up. Trade value chart still shows us in favor. I think we might have to do 28 + 93 if he gets technical on the point values truly. 

[ravens5520]

12 minutes ago, ravens5520 said:

Giants at 20 are offering their pick up.

 

It would take 28, 126(4th) & 148(top 5th rounder) for 20 to move up. Trade value chart still shows us in favor. I think we might have to do 28 + 93 if he gets technical on the point values truly. 

Ehhh Giants want our 3rd and 4th.. little rich for my liking at this time. I’d prefer not to remove ourselves from the 3rd round completely 

[Danand]

This is a draft class where I don't think we find a much superior talent from 20-40, either stay put or take a cheap deal to move up a bit. I think a lot of value will come our way in the 4. round.

I'll send a PM

[ravens5520]

Counter offer from Giants:

20 + 77

for 

28 + 60 + 145 (our late 4th)

values us on the positive side by a high 4th round

[diamondbull424]

Not in it for the Giants pick. YGM is off the board and I MIGHT have been convinced to go after him. Would personally stand pat at this point.

We tried trading up for an elite WR prospect and failed, nothing wrong with that. No need to get crazy now that there is no clear separator left on the board IMO.

Would stand pat for Zack Baun or Denzel Mims in the 1st, in that order.

[ravens5520]

Justin Jefferson WR to the Giants.

I think at this point we let the board play out. Would Love Higgins at 28, but also like Baun/McKinney/Taylor or Winfield there as well.

 

Then we trade up in the 2nd round. Get better value on a trade up 

[ravens5520]

1 minute ago, diamondbull424 said:

Not in it for the Giants pick. YGM is off the board and I MIGHT have been convinced to go after him. Would personally stand pat at this point.

We tried trading up for an elite WR prospect and failed, nothing wrong with that. No need to get crazy now that there is no clear separator left on the board IMO.

Would stand pat for Zack Baun or Denzel Mims in the 1st, in that order.

Kind of forgot about Mims. Also a good candidate

[diamondbull424]

11 minutes ago, ravens5520 said:

Kind of forgot about Mims. Also a good candidate

I like the way you think. Considering your position and considering Seattle might be interested in Baun an option worth considering might be to trade a 5th or 6th to move to 26th and take Baun.

Then conversely use the ammo we have to attempt a move up in the second round for our preferred WR option. Mims and Higgins likely being the most pro ready options. With Mims offering some AJ Green level ceiling if he reaches his ceiling due to his length, agility, and route running acumen.