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If the Raiders signed Brady, would you pursue Carr?


malagabears

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On 2/7/2020 at 2:45 PM, AZBearsFan said:

Lamenting Angelo’s decision to trade for Cutler or Pace’s decision to do what he did to draft Mitch is just silly.

These two are not even close to the same thing though. 

I didn't like Mitch coming out of college and I hated the trade at the time but I can at least understand it. The same can't be said for Cutler.

Pace gave up the farm on a high prospect QB coming out of college with potential. Angelo, gave up the farm on a QB who already had a resume in the NFL that was not as good as his numbers showed (for those who actually did research anyhow). And Angelo did this during a time when our defense was aging and had no weapons around Cutler at all on offense besides Forte.

Pace went all in and has tried his best to build a team good enough to win a SB and I will ALWAYS respect that. Regardless if it works out or not. 

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47 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

These two are not even close to the same thing though. 

I didn't like Mitch coming out of college and I hated the trade at the time but I can at least understand it. The same can't be said for Cutler.

Pace gave up the farm on a high prospect QB coming out of college with potential. Angelo, gave up the farm on a QB who already had a resume in the NFL that was not as good as his numbers showed (for those who actually did research anyhow). And Angelo did this during a time when our defense was aging and had no weapons around Cutler at all on offense besides Forte.

Pace went all in and has tried his best to build a team good enough to win a SB and I will ALWAYS respect that. Regardless if it works out or not. 

You not agreeing with Angelo’s evaluation of what Cutler was or more specifically what he thought he would become doesn’t make what Pace and Angelo did different things. Both bet big on the future of the player they traded for trying to get a long term solution at the most important roster spot. And it’s not as though Angelo wasn’t also trying to build a SB team around Cutler - he was just less successful at it, though to be fair he gave up a lot more in future draft capital to get his QB than Pace did. 

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14 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

You not agreeing with Angelo’s evaluation of what Cutler was or more specifically what he thought he would become doesn’t make what Pace and Angelo did different things. Both bet big on the future of the player they traded for trying to get a long term solution at the most important roster spot. And it’s not as though Angelo wasn’t also trying to build a SB team around Cutler - he was just less successful at it, though to be fair he gave up a lot more in future draft capital to get his QB than Pace did. 

It's not just about my evaluation of Cutler. I get that Angelo thought he was better than he was and that's fine. What I didn't agree with (and why it doesn't compare to Pace/Mitch) is that he gave away draft capital and money during a time when we had so many holes to fill. Angelo thought the defense would continue to be solid long enough while he rebuilt the offense even though the defense itself was aging and still needed work as well. there was no way to fix everything when you give up so much for an average QB.

This is not the same as Pace and Mitch. Pace knew damn well that Fox was in his last year and he would have a chance to bring in someone to get the most out Mitch and THEN go all to rebuild BOTH sides of the ball around him all at once.

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10 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

there was no way to fix everything when you give up so much for an average QB.

This is exactly my point - he didn’t think he was trading 2 first round picks and then some for an average QB. He thought he was trading for a franchise QB. 

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4 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

This is exactly my point - he didn’t think he was trading 2 first round picks and then some for an average QB. He thought he was trading for a franchise QB. 

Let be more clear. Even if JA believed he was getting a franchise QB---what good is a franchise QB when you have no OL, no targets (except Olsen/Forte), no defense, and no way to fix the majority of it without any resources (draft capital and money)? Cutler had an elite OL, a good TE, and an elite WR in Denver and was still mediocre....so what made JA think he could come here and win under much worse conditions and less help?

 It was terrible timing on his part. And I'm not letting him off the hook for his lack of talent evaluation either--regardless of what his intentions were.

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2 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Let be more clear. Even if JA believed he was getting a franchise QB---what good is a franchise QB when you have no OL, no targets (except Olsen/Forte), no defense, and no way to fix the majority of it without any resources (draft capital and money)? Cutler had an elite OL, a good TE, and an elite WR in Denver and was still mediocre....so what made JA think he could come here and win under much worse conditions and less help?

 It was terrible timing on his part. And I'm not letting him off the hook for his lack of talent evaluation either--regardless of what his intentions were.

What I bolded still goes back to your opinion on what Cutler would be going forward from the trade. That’s what Angelo was buying. Had Cutler had actually gone on to become a franchise QB those other things would have mattered less. Rodgers hasn’t had a great surrounding cast much of his career but he’s been a SB contender for most of it. JA thought that was what he was getting or he doesn’t trade 2 1st round picks and more. He just got it wrong. And had he not dumped 3 high picks to make the trade the surrounding cast would likely have been better too.  

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5 hours ago, Damikeeeee said:

What's the assumed asking price for Carr?  I like Carr. A lot more than Mitch. 

I’m personally still not convinced they’re in a hurry to move him, and certainly not until they have a replacement lined up, but if he were made available I’d guess we could get him for one of our 2nd rounders. But really, if he is available for something like that shouldn’t we be asking ourselves why that is? He’s a QB going into his age 29 season coming off a year where he completed over 70% of his passes, who maintains a career interception rate under 2% across 3300+ attempts and a career TD/INT ratio of 2.31/1. All of that is REALLY good. So why’s he seen as available? What’s in it for the Raiders? 

Simply, Carr isn’t dynamic. He doesn’t make enough plays. He protects the ball but despite being armed with a RB who was 3rd in the league in ypg, an upper echelon OL and a 90-catch breakout TE their offense was pretty anemic. Carr being more reliable than Trubisky is a knock on Trubisky, not a complement to Carr.

Objectively, can you put Carr as being definitively any better than a top 15 QB? He’s 39-55 as a starter (not all on him). He hasn’t thrown more than 22 TD since 2016 despite missing only 1 start the past 3 years. He’s not losing many games for you, but is he winning many for you? Sure doesn’t seem so. So yeah, he’s more of a sure thing than Mitch, but I don’t think a commitment to Carr gets us much if any closer to winning a title. I think a commitment to Carr would be an investment in average on offense, and while average is an upgrade over 2019 it’s not getting us to the promised land. 

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Wow, you guys need watch Carr more and not box score scout/solely look at Bear game, the praise in here is unreal. You guys do realize Carr is 0-6 in sub 40 degree games with a -8,383,392 QB Rating right? (rating exaggeration but you get the point)

Here's a write up of Carr I did last week:

 

On 2/5/2020 at 7:32 PM, BayRaider said:

I think we are making progress here. Let’s take away the terms Carr supporter and Carr hater. I don’t think Carr is a scrub. I don’t hate him. However, I have a lot of criticism and a lot of it is warranted. 
 

I have no problem giving Carr credit on many things. 
 

Pros: 

- Tremendous Release, top 5 in the league. 

- Tremendous Arm

- Grade A Short Level Accuracy Under 10 yards (guys open)

- Grade B Medium Level Accuracy 11-20 yards (guys open). 

- Solid A+ No issues type of character. 

Neutral: 

- Slightly above average processing speed.

 - Good straight line speed (let’s not mistake this for mobility, agility, extending plays, or escaping pressure though)

Cons:

- Poor situational awareness. Throwing short of the chains on 3rd, well short, throwing away on 4th down, does not get aggressive down two scores. Very content. Multiple coaching staffs. 
 

- Poor Pocket Presence. Does not have a good feel in the pocket if any defender looks like they are winning even a little bit. He will rush his reads, make a poor decision, or drop the ball off too soon for a minimal gain that will stall the drive whether it causes a 3rd and long or a punt. 
 

- Panics/Happy Feet Under Pressure. No, not all QBs have this. It’s not in many college scouting reports. That year was just him and Jimmy. And it’s followed both to the NFL. This year you’ll see it in Herberts scouting profile. He uses his feet and abandons footwork way to soon and gets way too paranoid under pressure. Also, with consistent pressure, he loses confidence really quickly. 
 

- Poor in cold weather. Some QBs have their stuff in cold weather and some don’t. Carr would be a solid in Indy. That whole division is mostly dome/warm weather as long as you don’t meet Tenn in Dec.

- Poor mobility escaping pressure and extending plays. Terrible lateral movement and sense of pressure.  

- Is not able to make anticipation and timing throws. This is crucial at the NFL level, and especially for a west coast offense like Jon Gruden. I do not think Carr belongs in a west coast offense. 
 

- Will not throw into tight windows. This is because he can’t. This is also completely needed in the NFL in most styles of offenses. There is only a few examples of Carr doing this, one being at the Pro Bowl. Carr is designed for a system that schemes WRs wide open. Musgraves offense was a good fit for him. 

This is also why when our cast doesn’t get monster type separation on plays, Carr just shuts down. Vikings and Jets games, those are on Carr. Guys still have a good step on their man, but Carr is not that type of QB. Against those type of smothering defenses Carr just shuts down completely. It’s much more on Carr than the WRs. 
 

- Average to Below Average Football IQ. I think Carr is pretty good pre snap and reading coverages pre snap but he gets fooled by disguised coverage easily, which leads to a quick panic drop off, and also fails to recognize the coverage in real time. His brain just doesn’t solve problems that fast (NFL speed fast). 
 

- Average to below average deep accuracy
 

- One of the very few QBs to not have an alpha personality. He’s sensitive, he’s passive aggressive, and just seems mentally weak. 
 

I personally don’t think he’s the QB for us but he’s not terrible. I have him ranked around 20-21 out of 32. 
 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

I’m personally still not convinced they’re in a hurry to move him, and certainly not until they have a replacement lined up, but if he were made available I’d guess we could get him for one of our 2nd rounders. But really, if he is available for something like that shouldn’t we be asking ourselves why that is? He’s a QB going into his age 29 season coming off a year where he completed over 70% of his passes, who maintains a career interception rate under 2% across 3300+ attempts and a career TD/INT ratio of 2.31/1. All of that is REALLY good. So why’s he seen as available? What’s in it for the Raiders? 

Simply, Carr isn’t dynamic. He doesn’t make enough plays. He protects the ball but despite being armed with a RB who was 3rd in the league in ypg, an upper echelon OL and a 90-catch breakout TE their offense was pretty anemic. Carr being more reliable than Trubisky is a knock on Trubisky, not a complement to Carr.

Objectively, can you put Carr as being definitively any better than a top 15 QB? He’s 39-55 as a starter (not all on him). He hasn’t thrown more than 22 TD since 2016 despite missing only 1 start the past 3 years. He’s not losing many games for you, but is he winning many for you? Sure doesn’t seem so. So yeah, he’s more of a sure thing than Mitch, but I don’t think a commitment to Carr gets us much if any closer to winning a title. I think a commitment to Carr would be an investment in average on offense, and while average is an upgrade over 2019 it’s not getting us to the promised land. 

Watch. Tape. Chris Simms breaks this down. Carr completed 70% because he throws well short of the chains on 3rd down. It's exactly why Bradford had 71% in 2016.

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On 2/6/2020 at 7:01 AM, WindyCity said:

They have a solid WR core, one of the more productive TEs in the league, and arguably the best OL in the league and a stud rookie RB.

Anyone who thinks the Raiders offense lacks talent is not watching.

This. Our Offense is stacked. Top 3 OL. Top 10 RB. Top 5 TE. Backup Rookie TE is a complete stud. Tyrell and Renfrow are solid WRs. Could we use another WR? Absolutely. But the offense is pretty great.

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5 hours ago, BayRaider said:

Watch. Tape. Chris Simms breaks this down. Carr completed 70% because he throws well short of the chains on 3rd down. It's exactly why Bradford had 71% in 2016.

Exactly. My whole point is that teams don’t give up on 29 year old good QBs just because. Buying on Carr is fool’s gold. 

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