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General off-season discussion/plan thread


N4L

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I just got an update on my phone from sleeper that the mosteratti has requested a trade. I feel bad for the guy because he is locked up long term for pennies on the dollar but there is no chance we pay him more or trade him. hes stuck

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1 hour ago, struby3 said:

Who would you take if this happened and the draft was today? Do you take Trevor Lawrence? Do you roll with Jimmy G and take Sewell, Rousseau, Chase, or even someone like Patrick Surtain? If we didn't take Lawrence, then it seems like Sewell would be a safe pick, but can you imagine if Rousseau lived up to his potential? Bosa, Rousseau, Armstead, and Kinlaw? Yikes.

@Forge beat me to it. I would take Lawrence in that situation. It would take a lot to move down IMO if TL was sitting in our laps. 

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And is already starting in college....

37 UNC football players tested positive, so now the ACC is pushing back the start of fall sports until September 1st. Big Ten announces that their going with a conference only FB schedule. Too many dominoes are falling for me to believe that football games are doable at this point...

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On 7/8/2020 at 2:07 PM, Forge said:

That's all he is right now. He's competent. He's in that middle tier of meh quarterbacks that can basically range anywhere from 13 - 20 which often results in purgatory. I'm not passing on an amazing opportunity to land a franchise quarterback for that. 

He may get better, may not. Personally I don't think that he's much better than that long term...he's good enough to win with, and that's enough for now. 

I told someone last night that he was sorta like Jameis Winston last year. Some amazing plays where he looks like a legit, upper tier starter, some plays where he looks like a completely incompetent turnover machine. 

The main difference to me was the fact that Jameis would throw an interception, then the flood gates would open and he would end up turning it over 3-4 more times. Jimmy would get the italian eye of the tiger after a dumb INT and would play his best ball for the rest of the game. He does have a good mental makeup, which is very important. 

I really dont think you are giving him enough credit though. He was super clutch for us for the vast majority of the year. If chris jones doesnt bat those balls down, we might be having a completely different conversation right now, but I still think his overall play this year and in 2017 shows that he thrives under pressure. He was really great on 3rd down and in the 4th quarter of a lot of games.

I do think that there are some easy things for him to correct. #1 for me is footwork and pocket presence. in 2017 you couldnt sack him, he would move around in the pocket well and would flip the ball out as he was about to get hit. it was beautiful. We didnt see much of that last year, seems like there were times where he didnt trust his knee. I dont think he was able to work on that stuff too much last offseason and am hoping that changes. 

Also keep in mind that our WRs were not good early in the year. Sanders was a good player last year but he wasnt great. Deebo didnt start to shine until much later in the year (seattle MNF coming out party). KB was good later in the year, but early on he wasnt locked in. We didnt have a lot of depth. Pettis, goodwin were useless. We lost both tackles at the same time, so we didnt want to run a lot of long developing routes (those types of routes are kyle's forte btw). We had A TON of injuries on offense. So its not as if he was holding back our passing offense or something. He was good. Not great, but good. 

 

Basically I guess it comes down to what you think about him, if you think the 2017 version is really who he is, then you believe he will be better in 2020. If you think that 2018/2019 Jimmy is who he is, then I can see how you would say that hes going to land us in QB purgatory. 

I honestly think that Jimmy will play the best football of his career next year. 

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1 hour ago, N4L said:

I told someone last night that he was sorta like Jameis Winston last year. Some amazing plays where he looks like a legit, upper tier starter, some plays where he looks like a completely incompetent turnover machine. 

The main difference to me was the fact that Jameis would throw an interception, then the flood gates would open and he would end up turning it over 3-4 more times. Jimmy would get the italian eye of the tiger after a dumb INT and would play his best ball for the rest of the game. He does have a good mental makeup, which is very important. 

I really dont think you are giving him enough credit though. He was super clutch for us for the vast majority of the year. If chris jones doesnt bat those balls down, we might be having a completely different conversation right now, but I still think his overall play this year and in 2017 shows that he thrives under pressure. He was really great on 3rd down and in the 4th quarter of a lot of games.

I do think that there are some easy things for him to correct. #1 for me is footwork and pocket presence. in 2017 you couldnt sack him, he would move around in the pocket well and would flip the ball out as he was about to get hit. it was beautiful. We didnt see much of that last year, seems like there were times where he didnt trust his knee. I dont think he was able to work on that stuff too much last offseason and am hoping that changes. 

Also keep in mind that our WRs were not good early in the year. Sanders was a good player last year but he wasnt great. Deebo didnt start to shine until much later in the year (seattle MNF coming out party). KB was good later in the year, but early on he wasnt locked in. We didnt have a lot of depth. Pettis, goodwin were useless. We lost both tackles at the same time, so we didnt want to run a lot of long developing routes (those types of routes are kyle's forte btw). We had A TON of injuries on offense. So its not as if he was holding back our passing offense or something. He was good. Not great, but good. 

 

Basically I guess it comes down to what you think about him, if you think the 2017 version is really who he is, then you believe he will be better in 2020. If you think that 2018/2019 Jimmy is who he is, then I can see how you would say that hes going to land us in QB purgatory. 

I honestly think that Jimmy will play the best football of his career next year. 

He's okay.  He's not a top 10 quarterback, not a bottom 10 quarterback. He's in a rather large pile of okay quarterbacks who are mostly reliant on circumstance and situation. I'd probably rank him at best in the middle of the pack, but it could slant slightly below 15/16. It's all really just splitting hairs at that level. 

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5 hours ago, N4L said:

I told someone last night that he was sorta like Jameis Winston last year. Some amazing plays where he looks like a legit, upper tier starter, some plays where he looks like a completely incompetent turnover machine. 

The main difference to me was the fact that Jameis would throw an interception, then the flood gates would open and he would end up turning it over 3-4 more times. Jimmy would get the italian eye of the tiger after a dumb INT and would play his best ball for the rest of the game. He does have a good mental makeup, which is very important. 

I really dont think you are giving him enough credit though. He was super clutch for us for the vast majority of the year. If chris jones doesnt bat those balls down, we might be having a completely different conversation right now, but I still think his overall play this year and in 2017 shows that he thrives under pressure. He was really great on 3rd down and in the 4th quarter of a lot of games.

I do think that there are some easy things for him to correct. #1 for me is footwork and pocket presence. in 2017 you couldnt sack him, he would move around in the pocket well and would flip the ball out as he was about to get hit. it was beautiful. We didnt see much of that last year, seems like there were times where he didnt trust his knee. I dont think he was able to work on that stuff too much last offseason and am hoping that changes. 

Also keep in mind that our WRs were not good early in the year. Sanders was a good player last year but he wasnt great. Deebo didnt start to shine until much later in the year (seattle MNF coming out party). KB was good later in the year, but early on he wasnt locked in. We didnt have a lot of depth. Pettis, goodwin were useless. We lost both tackles at the same time, so we didnt want to run a lot of long developing routes (those types of routes are kyle's forte btw). We had A TON of injuries on offense. So its not as if he was holding back our passing offense or something. He was good. Not great, but good. 

 

Basically I guess it comes down to what you think about him, if you think the 2017 version is really who he is, then you believe he will be better in 2020. If you think that 2018/2019 Jimmy is who he is, then I can see how you would say that hes going to land us in QB purgatory. 

I honestly think that Jimmy will play the best football of his career next year. 

For me, the tell tale is that there were stretches of a game....important games like the SB, where Shanny called the game as to protect Jimmy from himself. His carelessness with the ball at times and his lack of poise under duress keeps him in that tier Forge mentioned. There is absolutely room for him to mature, improve and climb into that top tier. But I'm not going to assume it will happen. Jimmy has to show me on the field. 

For a guy playing his first full season as a starter, there were definitely positives to build on. But I still see holes in his game that could prevent us from beating top tier teams if he doesn't address them. If you look at the playoff teams in the NFC or potential playoff teams...Seattle, GB, Saints, Eagles, Cowboy, Bucs, Vikes...how many of those teams could Jimmy start for? Maybe the Vikes but I personally think him and Cousins are a wash. I think we're easily the best team in the conference until proven otherwise. But you could argue he's a step down from those other playoff starters. We currently have the inferior talent, at the most important position, of all the playoff contenders in our conference.  

Edited by 757-NINER
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21 hours ago, 757-NINER said:

For a guy playing his first full season as a starter, there were definitely positives to build on.

But I still see holes in his game that could prevent us from beating top tier teams if he doesn't address them. If you look at the playoff teams in the NFC or potential playoff teams...Seattle, GB, Saints, Eagles, Cowboy, Bucs, Vikes...how many of those teams could Jimmy start for?

First sentence says aplenty. I think Jimmy's the real deal, and will be just fine. He's got that moxie, and was a 3rd down champ. I don't think the question should be how many teams can JImmy start for. I think he's as good as most of these QBs, at this point in all respective careers. They may have different strengths, but added up, he's as good. He's a top 12 QB in my book, and precision ranking is such a fool's game.

I don't think Shanny was hiding the Jimmy as much as he was hiding the pass blocking up front, and taking advantage of the run game strength that was working. Deebo stepped up his growth, and it was nice to have vet Manny, but I won't pretend that SF is in the top tier of outside weapons either. Jimmy was a bit over his head in the SB, and it was a tough spot to be in.. in his first full season. The refs did him little favors either. They really wanted Mahomes to take home the bacon. 

If we don't win a SB in these next few years, I seriously doubt it will be because of our QB. 

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21 hours ago, 757-NINER said:

There is absolutely room for him to mature, improve and climb into that top tier. But I'm not going to assume it will happen. Jimmy has to show me on the field. 

This is it for me right here. Basically sums up and crushes everything. 

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1 hour ago, oldman9er said:

First sentence says aplenty. I think Jimmy's the real deal, and will be just fine. He's got that moxie, and was a 3rd down champ. I don't think the question should be how many teams can JImmy start for. I think he's as good as most of these QBs, at this point in all respective careers. They may have different strengths, but added up, he's as good. He's a top 12 QB in my book, and precision ranking is such a fool's game.

I don't think Shanny was hiding the Jimmy as much as he was hiding the pass blocking up front, and taking advantage of the run game strength that was working. Deebo stepped up his growth, and it was nice to have vet Manny, but I won't pretend that SF is in the top tier of outside weapons either. Jimmy was a bit over his head in the SB, and it was a tough spot to be in.. in his first full season. The refs did him little favors either. They really wanted Mahomes to take home the bacon. 

If we don't win a SB in these next few years, I seriously doubt it will be because of our QB. 

Everyone's entitled to their opinion. I definitely don't agree Shanny was hiding the O-Line as much as he was Jimmy. Moxie is a great quality to have but if that's your best attribute,  well that's saying something without saying much at all.

I don't think he's as good as guys like Wentz, Prescott, Brees, Brady, Wilson, Watson, Big Ben, Rodgers, Mahomes, Jackson....other playoff QBs. I think he has a likeable personality and is a guy a good locker room can rally around. But he can't go throw for throw, run for run, nor make something out of nothing like those other QBs mentioned. I don't think his skill as a passer can carry the offense in critical late season moments, or at least he hasn't exhibited the ability thus far. He's a slightly better Andy Dalton in his prime, currently. Now that's good enough to win a SB IF the other parts around him do the heavy lifting. But that's not good enough to where you feel at ease when he's asked to make critical decisions and throws in career-defining moments. 

What I will say is that I look at Brady early in his career. How he grew from a guy who was asked to simply be a cog in the Belichick machine, into a legendary QB who can argue for GOAT status. And that gives me hope that Jimmy can develop into more than what he is currently. Only caveat is that Brady had/has a meteor-sized chip on his shoulder that fueled him like no other. We don't know yet if Jimmy has that same passion to be the best....ever.

 

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43 minutes ago, 757-NINER said:

Everyone's entitled to their opinion

there it is..

43 minutes ago, 757-NINER said:

Moxie is a great quality to have but if that's your best attribute,  well that's saying something without saying much at all.

never said it was his best. I'd say his best is that quick release that makes a pass pro look good. 

 

44 minutes ago, 757-NINER said:

He's a slightly better Andy Dalton in his prime, currently.

that's offensive, but goes back to that entitled opinion accepted.

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@757-NINER well said, and in response to the "I need Jimmy to show me" comment earlier, that is completely fair. There is definitely some *hopeful* predictions on my part. I have seen some flashes of the type of heady QB play that the best of the best show on a weekly basis. While there was a lot of flashes of greatness, there were absolutely times when it didn't look like he had "it". The Carolina game is an example, he looked lethargic and the ball looked slow coming out of his hand early. We still won by 50 or whatever though because literally everyone else delivered an absolute beatdown. So there were definitely times when Kyle saw that Jimmy wasn't his best and adjusted, yet still outcoached the other team. Kyle deserves sooo much credit for last season. 

Garoppolo wasn't consistent. If he can make his baseline performance somewhere between good and great, with a little great sprinkled in, it would be a big step in the right direction. His issues are certainly correctable with good coaching and more experience. Consistency comes with experience imo (it's a shame he's gonna be 29 soon and has only started 1 full season, esp if next year gets cancelled, but no excuses though) 

So, there is plenty of valid reasons to be skeptical, and also plenty of reasons to have hope. Probably best to have to a blend of both 

PS. I do believe he works hard and is dedicated to winning above all else. I think he's wise enough to listen to the smart people who coach this team to figure out exactly wtf he needs to do differently 

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On 7/11/2020 at 8:54 PM, 757-NINER said:

Everyone's entitled to their opinion. I definitely don't agree Shanny was hiding the O-Line as much as he was Jimmy. Moxie is a great quality to have but if that's your best attribute,  well that's saying something without saying much at all.

I don't think he's as good as guys like Wentz, Prescott, Brees, Brady, Wilson, Watson, Big Ben, Rodgers, Mahomes, Jackson....other playoff QBs. I think he has a likeable personality and is a guy a good locker room can rally around. But he can't go throw for throw, run for run, nor make something out of nothing like those other QBs mentioned. I don't think his skill as a passer can carry the offense in critical late season moments, or at least he hasn't exhibited the ability thus far. He's a slightly better Andy Dalton in his prime, currently. Now that's good enough to win a SB IF the other parts around him do the heavy lifting. But that's not good enough to where you feel at ease when he's asked to make critical decisions and throws in career-defining moments. 

What I will say is that I look at Brady early in his career. How he grew from a guy who was asked to simply be a cog in the Belichick machine, into a legendary QB who can argue for GOAT status. And that gives me hope that Jimmy can develop into more than what he is currently. Only caveat is that Brady had/has a meteor-sized chip on his shoulder that fueled him like no other. We don't know yet if Jimmy has that same passion to be the best....ever.

 

I don't know if your doing the thing where the grass is always greener or what, but you are way overstating several of those QBs while drumming down JimmyG imo. Prescott is way overrated. As much as I hate the 'boys, they are easily one of the most talented teams in the nfl, if not the most talented. How many playoff victories does he have again? (Its less than Jimmy) I'd argue Wentz has more physical talent but he hasn't put it together since his ACL a couple of years back either. Brady spent 20 years in the same system, he wont look the same this year. However he is an all time great as well as Brees. Wilson, yes hes better (Wilson is) same with Watson who is a legit superstar. Ben is past his prime and doesn't look anything near as good as he did 5 years ago, same with Rodgers who might have been one of the best qbs ever from a tangibles standpoint. I love Mahomes but hes made for the game as it is now he wouldn't have lasted in an earlier era and we will see on his durability. I think you are moving the goal posts with your evaluation.

Plus I have to agree with Oldman, interior pass blocking last season was attrocious, Shanahan was hiding that much more than Jimmy last season. 

As supported from a tweet from 3 months ago...

David Lombardi (@LombardiHimself) Tweeted:
The only QB who was more efficient here than Jimmy Garoppolo with worse pass protection in 2019 was Russell Wilson. This was also an issue in the Super Bowl and should be a point of emphasis in the 49ers’ offseason. https://t.co/ksJjx9yw4V https://twitter.com/LombardiHimself/status/1224817999284060160?s=20

Edited by Ftn49
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2 hours ago, Ftn49 said:

I don't know if your doing the thing where the grass is always greener or what, but you are way overstating several of those QBs while drumming down JimmyG imo. Prescott is way overrated. As much as I hate the 'boys, they are easily one of the most talented teams in the nfl, if not the most talented. How many playoff victories does he have again? (Its less than Jimmy) I'd argue Wentz has more physical talent but he hasn't put it together since his ACL a couple of years back either. Brady spent 20 years in the same system, he wont look the same this year. However he is an all time great as well as Brees. Wilson, yes hes better (Wilson is) same with Watson who is a legit superstar. Ben is past his prime and doesn't look anything near as good as he did 5 years ago, same with Rodgers who might have been one of the best qbs ever from a tangibles standpoint. I love Mahomes but hes made for the game as it is now he wouldn't have lasted in an earlier era and we will see on his durability. I think you are moving the goal posts with your evaluation.

Plus I have to agree with Oldman, interior pass blocking last season was attrocious, Shanahan was hiding that much more than Jimmy last season. 

As supported from a tweet from 3 months ago...

David Lombardi (@LombardiHimself) Tweeted:
The only QB who was more efficient here than Jimmy Garoppolo with worse pass protection in 2019 was Russell Wilson. This was also an issue in the Super Bowl and should be a point of emphasis in the 49ers’ offseason. https://t.co/ksJjx9yw4V https://twitter.com/LombardiHimself/status/1224817999284060160?s=20

Like I said, to each his own. Everyone's has their own view and that's perfectly fine. I'll argue that everyone of those QBs I mentioned could have done wihay Jimmy did or better for this offense last year, with the same parts around them.

Nothing wrong with being critical of Jimmy and his play. There's some things he does really well. Just acknowledging there's definitely room for improvement if he and this team want to take the next step.

The O-Line metric I take with a grain of salt. Yes, the O-Line needs improving along the interior. I have acknowledged personally, on numerous occasions. But I would attribute less than half of Jimmy's bad passes or errant throws to shotty O-Line play. I had nothing to do but rewatch all of our games from last season when Coronavirus first hit us and everything was shutdown. Most of our games I watched the coaches film numerous times and took notes. Jimmy had issues with anticipation, bad footwork, piss-poor throwing mechanics, tunnel vision/not seeing the field, pocket awareness and with his accuracy. And in alot of those instances, it had nothing to do with the blocking in front of him. 

Edited by 757-NINER
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There are certain things I want Jimmy to improve in, most notably not predetermining some throws. A lot of his INTS come from him not being able to diagnose the underneath defender in the zone or Jimmy making up his mind from the snap where he is going with the ball. If he cleans that up then he should continue having top 10 caliber seasons, as he had last year. Would it be great if he can become a top 5 elite QB? Sure, but I am more than fine with him being top 10ish caliber as that should be enough to be one of the SB favorites. Having elite QBs only guarantee a team making the playoffs almost every year, but the best overall teams are the ones that end up making it to the SB or winning them. I don't go into any match up and say man, the opposing QB is better so we are at a disadvantage. Only Mahomes put real fear and even he was contained up until the end. 

The OL was not great in pass protection last season and even with Williams, there are some glaring weaknesses there. But Jimmy's quick release and our system is able to overcome that. Jimmy just can't be throwing the ball into double coverage or panicking if pressure gets to him. He needs to learn to eat it and live to play another down. But that is not him and he that risk taking ability to him so you have to live with it. 

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