Pre Combine Hitman Mock 2.0

[Chieferific]

2 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

He's terrible in coverage because he can't cover Keenan Allen two years ago. This has changed the entire discourse on him. He covers TEs and he's solid in short zones. Is he Ryan Shazier, no, but he's far from terrible in coverage. 

No. Incorrect.  He cannot cover Flats or ANYONE Man to Man and is at best average in Short Zones.  He has zero lateral quickness.  This has been the case way before Allen.  Again, the fact that he hardly saw the field should tell you he is not a scheme fit.  His snap count went down from an average of 742 to 401 in 2019.  Barron had 750.  

[MOSteelers56]

10 minutes ago, Chieferific said:

No. Incorrect.  He cannot cover Flats or ANYONE Man to Man and is at best average in Short Zones.  He has zero lateral quickness.  This has been the case way before Allen.  Again, the fact that he hardly saw the field should tell you he is not a scheme fit.  His snap count went down from an average of 742 to 401 in 2019.  Barron had 750.  

Yes, Barron is a better coverage guy than Vince. Nobody is debating that. We can't keep everyone, and Vince provides leadership. Gilbert can take some of Barron's snaps and we can put in a 3rd safety to do what he did too. I don't think upgrading ILB is a need at all. It's one of the most unimportant positions in football. Why spend resources on it when we just gave up a ton for Bush?

[Dcash4]

If the argument against Williams is that he cant replace Barron's coverage ability, we might need to change the criteria. 

[Chieferific]

1 minute ago, MOSteelers56 said:

Yes, Barron is a better coverage guy than Vince. Nobody is debating that. We can't keep everyone, and Vince provides leadership. Gilbert can take some of Barron's snaps and we can put in a 3rd safety to do what he did too. I don't think upgrading ILB is a need at all. It's one of the most unimportant positions in football. Why spend resources on it when we just gave up a ton for Bush?

So a #2 ILB is less important then a 3rd Safety?  Subbing VW in and out for when they think teams are gonna run it is that easy?  Gilbert, a 6th Rd 2nd year Man with 5 total tackles to his name is the answer?  It is apparent we will never agree on this issue.  

[Chieferific]

1 minute ago, Dcash4 said:

If the argument against Williams is that he cant replace Barron's coverage ability, we might need to change the criteria. 

If you think Barron is bad at it,  wait until VW is charged with running down the Seam on a regular basis.  Ideally, neither play much. 

[jebrick]

59 minutes ago, Chieferific said:

VW had 52 tackles in 14 games.  He isn't playing much.  Why?  He doesn't fit the scheme they wan to run. Again, IF Baron leaves they need to find another ILB that fits their scheme. 

Perhaps one named Gilbert?  Bush fits the role that Barron was doing just does not have experience.  Neither does Gilbert but he could also fit the role.

[Steeler Hitman]

10 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

He's terrible in coverage because he can't cover Keenan Allen two years ago. This has changed the entire discourse on him. He covers TEs and he's solid in short zones. Is he Ryan Shazier, no, but he's far from terrible in coverage. 

LJ couldn't cover Keenan either. I don't think there is a LB in the NFL who can consistently cover him. Mismatch! Period! Horrible scheming. Pass coverage is probably 60% - 65% of the game in the regular season. Come the play-offs, the need to be able to run and stop the run increases.  You need the big boys that you can rotate in when teams start trying to move you.  A players success has a lot to do with th scheme they play in. Let Vince drop in a zone rather than play man. Let him play on first downs/running downs and blitz more rather than trying to make him cover.  I have too many memories over the years of needing to stop a team on a third or fourth and one and failing miserably because our entire defense got MOVED or PUSHED way the (you know what back)! You need interior DL and a ILB who is a thumper in those situations. The Seattle game is an example of where we needed this. We should have blown the Seahawks out with any semblance of offense.  Wilson running for 15 yards and then easily converting a fourth and one and a half.  I have seen that too much. Even the Ravens did it playing us Week 17 with the ball inside of our 30 yard line. Fourth and one and easily converted by pushing our DL back a few yards. Having a healthy Tuitt and Cam greatly help, but having a big McNasty like Billings and a thumper at ILB like VW.  You get all coverage guys and we get the ball crammed down our throats.

I remember the days of having a tremendous run defense and teams picking us apart via the pass. However, I think you need a balance.  I certainly prefer Bush who is probably better at playing the run now, but will be a pretty darn good all-around/balanced ILB.  Jon Bostic was a good ILB playing the run, but got lost in our defense because teams simply threw on us when he was there. We have to learn to find the middle ground. You just can't be all run defense or all pass defense.  Great discussion and valid points made by all.

[jebrick]

47 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said:

As I have said VW is the first down run stuffer. U. Gilbert is the one I am gambling on to replace Baron.  Again Mock scenario, six picks and i only signed one UFA NG Billings base on the cap. Ideally, I am waiting for cap casualties or cuts to sign Safety, TE, and ILB help. They ended up signing Bostic late like that. I am not so sure that playing Baron more than VW was the answer. No doubt Baron could cover better (though I didn't see a tomn of great coverage, but VW can blitz and drop in zone. This is not perfect, but making lemonade out of the lemons that you have.  Ideally, yes draft or sign an athletic ILB type.  With safety help, maybe even put Edmunds in that role?

The Steelers need to keep a NT just to be a run stuffer when needed.  They just should not pay much for a player that only plays >50% of the snaps ( which is why I would let Hargraves walk).

[Chieferific]

4 minutes ago, jebrick said:

Perhaps one named Gilbert?  Bush fits the role that Barron was doing just does not have experience.  Neither does Gilbert but he could also fit the role.

This is the crux of the argument.  I like Gilbert.  Loved the pick.  However, we don't know what he can do.  Of course we don't know what a Rookie could do either so there's that.  But the SB window is closing and a heavy snap ILB is a bigger need then a 3rd Safety imo.  I'd rather not pigeon hole that responsibility on an untested player.  Unless of course like @Steeler Hitman, suggested...They move Edmunds to that role.  Then Safety is a huge need. 

[Steeler Hitman]

5 minutes ago, jebrick said:

The Steelers need to keep a NT just to be a run stuffer when needed.  They just should not pay much for a player that only plays >50% of the snaps ( which is why I would let Hargraves walk).

I agree completely which is why I am in favor of signing a NG over a DT and letting Hargraves walk. Billings or Robinson should not cost anywhere near $11 or $12 million a year that many claim Hargraves can command/ask. Hopefully, Tuitt and Cam can be the Nickel/Dime DT's on passing downs.

[AFF]

1 hour ago, Chieferific said:

VW had 52 tackles in 14 games.  He isn't playing much.  Why?  He doesn't fit the scheme they wan to run. Again, IF Baron leaves they need to find another ILB that fits their scheme. 

No he’s just a 2 down thumper that doesn’t fit the current nfl.

However like I said they don’t save anything from cutting him and he has his role....he’s staying.

[Steeler Hitman]

5 minutes ago, Chieferific said:

This is the crux of the argument.  I like Gilbert.  Loved the pick.  However, we don't know what he can do.  Of course we don't know what a Rookie could do either so there's that.  But the SB window is closing and a heavy snap ILB is a bigger need then a 3rd Safety imo.  I'd rather not pigeon hole that responsibility on an untested player.  Unless of course like @Steeler Hitman, suggested...They move Edmunds to that role.  Then Safety is a huge need. 

We agree that the window is closing and the team is in a win now mode.  I think we also all agree that team is in Nickel or Dime more than in it's 3-4 base where Vince plays. Correct? The base 3-4 has two ILB's. They are in it far less than defenses with multiple DB's. So, explain to me why is ILB a BIGGER or MORE IMPORTANT need than a third safety?

In my humble opinion we felt the sting of not having a viable third safety like Davis when he was hurt last year. Teams started to avoid Minkah and threw at the inexperienced Edmunds.   

[Chieferific]

11 minutes ago, AlanFanecaFan said:

No he’s just a 2 down thumper that doesn’t fit the current nfl.

However like I said they don’t save anything from cutting him and he has his role....he’s staying.

Agreed.  This wasn't a debate about cutting him (at least I didn't think it was).  I was stating that he cannot be a 700+ snap ILB.  So if it isn't him and Baron leaves, that leaves Gilbert.  Who very well may be able to handle it.  I merely suggest that could be a problem and having another capable body there should be a priority. 

Edited February 7, 2020 by Chieferific

[Chieferific]

7 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said:

We agree that the window is closing and the team is in a win now mode.  I think we also all agree that team is in Nickel or Dime more than in it's 3-4 base where Vince plays. Correct? The base 3-4 has two ILB's. They are in it far less than defenses with multiple DB's. So, explain to me why is ILB a BIGGER or MORE IMPORTANT need than a third safety?

In my humble opinion we felt the sting of not having a viable third safety like Davis when he was hurt last year. Teams started to avoid Minkah and threw at the inexperienced Edmunds.   

Because Barron played that role.  Again, he had 700+ snaps last year.  That has to be replaced if he leaves.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Chieferific

[Steeler Hitman]

1 minute ago, Chieferific said:

Because Barron played that role. 

Baron is not the only person who can play that role. let's not forget the team traded up and drafted Bush. He alone will cut into a lot of Baron's snaps. Like the argument for a NG, why pay big money when you aren't playing big/many snaps?

Again, he had 700+ snaps last year. 

IKey word: HAD (past tense). As you can tell,  I wasn't happy with Baron in that role to begin with. He played as much as he did because Bush was a rookie. If they still had LJ Fort, his snaps would have been reduced or he may not have even been on the team. As far as I am concerned, he played in about 350+ more than I would have liked to have seen him. 

I was a fan of the Mark baron signing, but not of the results. On paper he looked to be a better fit for what they did than Jon Bostic the previous year. There were times when it looked like Baron was just walking around. I know how insulting it can be to a player or someone when you "question" their effort. However, at times, I saw and felt that. It is only my perception, but if I was his coach, I would challenge him to explain what I saw and more importantly, show me differently when he gets back on the field.  If I was/am wrong, then I would man up and so say to the player. He didn't look comfortable at times and was like Edmonds at ILB to me, but worse because he is a veteran.

That has to be replaced if he leaves.

1. His snaps in 2020 would be reduced either way. Bush is going to take more snaps. As he should! (There's a big part of the replacement). Bush's snaps will go up and Baron or whoever's will go down. 

2. His snaps can/would be replaced by multiple remaining  people: As stated, Bush with more snaps, VW in base and short yardage, Gilbert and maybe even Edmonds moving down to take some snaps.