Pandomonium Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 I think the majority of us are in agreement that we need another corner question 1: should we draft a CB? (there is a good class coming out this year and I know we could get one of the really good ones at pick 31) or do we try to grab one via free agency (although I think we will probably tie up much of cap room trying to retain our own FAs) question 2: if we go get one via draft, who do you guys like? question 2a : if we go free agency who would you like? annnnnnnnnnd GO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justone2 Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 I feel really conflicted on our CB group. On one hand how much do you trust Spoon for the whole year and how long do you think Sherman will be playing at this level. If you trust Spoon i don't think you draft one early or sign one in FA(might take a cheap flyer). If you don't you need to really contemplate if you trust Moseley enough either alone or in combination with Spoon. For me drafting one in the later rounds is almost a certain to fill that 6th corner spot on the roster. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandomonium Posted February 8, 2020 Author Share Posted February 8, 2020 7 minutes ago, Justone2 said: I feel really conflicted on our CB group. On one hand how much do you trust Spoon for the whole year and how long do you think Sherman will be playing at this level. If you trust Spoon i don't think you draft one early or sign one in FA(might take a cheap flyer). If you don't you need to really contemplate if you trust Moseley enough either alone or in combination with Spoon. For me drafting one in the later rounds is almost a certain to fill that 6th corner spot on the roster. well 1. I DO NOT trust witherspoon and 2. i love sherm but he is showing us he's lost a step and 3. I like E-man (he's a DAWG) but he struggles against WRs bigger than him so in my opinion CB is a priority Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 I'm actually not in agreement... Well, maybe, probably need to put it another way. I do not believe we think we need another corner, nor would I expect us to bring in any type of name corner as a potential starter. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justone2 Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, Pandomonium said: well 1. I DO NOT trust witherspoon and 2. i love sherm but he is showing us he's lost a step and 3. I like E-man (he's a DAWG) but he struggles against WRs bigger than him so in my opinion CB is a priority Yeah thats fine. With Spoon he is such a tease of what he can be and do. The first few weeks this year he was absolutely playing at a very high level. Then he gets injured and falls back way too far the last few weeks. To me the fact he immediatly went to our ST coordinator says a lot to me. With Sherman sure he has lost a step but that really only is a problem against guys like Hill or other speedsters. To me Sherman is 100% the starter next year and porbably would sign him to a new deal after that(based on asking price and such offcourse. Moseley is great and basically a rookie and while he has had his struggles i don't think they are bad enough to have to replace him with a first round CB. I would probably roll with a competition between Spoon and E-Man in TC and the preseason with maybe a late round rookie or cheap FA signing is they impress enough joining that competition. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandomonium Posted February 9, 2020 Author Share Posted February 9, 2020 30 minutes ago, Justone2 said: Yeah thats fine. With Spoon he is such a tease of what he can be and do. The first few weeks this year he was absolutely playing at a very high level. Then he gets injured and falls back way too far the last few weeks. To me the fact he immediatly went to our ST coordinator says a lot to me. With Sherman sure he has lost a step but that really only is a problem against guys like Hill or other speedsters. To me Sherman is 100% the starter next year and porbably would sign him to a new deal after that(based on asking price and such offcourse. Moseley is great and basically a rookie and while he has had his struggles i don't think they are bad enough to have to replace him with a first round CB. I would probably roll with a competition between Spoon and E-Man in TC and the preseason with maybe a late round rookie or cheap FA signing is they impress enough joining that competition. he is irritating as hell he will be in perfect position many times to make an INT or PBU but REFUSES....I mean ABSOLUTELY REFUSES to look for the ball Other times he gets hit in the chest with the ball and drops it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
757-NINER Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 27 minutes ago, Forge said: I'm actually not in agreement... Well, maybe, probably need to put it another way. I do not believe we think we need another corner, nor would I expect us to bring in any type of name corner as a potential starter. This. There's nothing wrong with our CBs. I don't understand what ppl expect nowadays. We had the #1 pass defense for the majority of the season. Our CBs made plays all year. They gave up a few but not to the degree ppl need to be contemplating finding another starter. Sherm, Spoon, Williams and E-Man are arguably as deep and as talented a CB group as you'll find in the league. I dare anyone find me a better three man CB rotation and nickelback in the league. These guys have excelled in the scheme. Much like we did with Verrett, we might kick the tires on another vet to add to the mix. But that won't be a indictment on our current group. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandomonium Posted February 9, 2020 Author Share Posted February 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, 757-NINER said: This. There's nothing wrong with our CBs. I don't understand what ppl expect nowadays. We had the #1 pass defense for the majority of the season. Our CBs made plays all year. They gave up a few but not to the degree ppl need to be contemplating finding another starter. Sherm, Spoon, Williams and E-Man are arguably as deep and as talented a CB group as you'll find in the league. I dare anyone find me a better three man CB rotation and nickelback in the league. These guys have excelled in the scheme. Much like we did with Verrett, we might kick the tires on another vet to add to the mix. But that won't be a indictment on our current group. that #1 pass defense came from a devastating pass rush and with all due respect, it is hubris to think we are just fine at corner Sherman is great and I love him. but to think that he isn't losing a step against upper level WR talent when asked to cover man to man is just not paying attention Witherspoon is a PI call or a deep TD waiting to happen I love E-Man but as I stated before, he struggles against WRs who are bigger and more physical granted, he does play bigger than he actually is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Pandomonium said: Sherman is great and I love him. but to think that he isn't losing a step against upper level WR talent when asked to cover man to man is just not paying attention The dude legitimately just had a second team all pro season. Almost every corner struggles against top flight receivers. The wide receivers have built in advantages. The number of truly elite, shut down corners in this league can be counted on one hand. The end will come, and probably very rapidly at some point, but we will probably move on from that too late. 3 minutes ago, Pandomonium said: that #1 pass defense came from a devastating pass rush A pass rush we should still have 3 minutes ago, Pandomonium said: Witherspoon is a PI call or a deep TD waiting to happen I love E-Man but as I stated before, he struggles against WRs who are bigger and more physical granted, he does play bigger than he actually is. Both of these are somewhat legit. I've commented on the Moseley struggles against bigger receivers before. It's legit. Spoon is up and down. He can be amazing and dreadful. But make no mistake, given the quality of play, the upside of spoon and most important, the cost of each (ie, they are very very cheap which is important on a team with a lot of money to be paid), and the rest of the defense, I don't believe that this team is going to put a lot of capital this off season into another corner, especially with other potential issues. These corners can be great, and their base line as is, is fine. Better than most. I don't think that this is a group that the FO is going to expect to greatly improve this off season unless we happen to get lucky in some manner. No question to me that the intent is for these four to be our top four next season 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
757-NINER Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Pandomonium said: that #1 pass defense came from a devastating pass rush and with all due respect, it is hubris to think we are just fine at corner Sherman is great and I love him. but to think that he isn't losing a step against upper level WR talent when asked to cover man to man is just not paying attention Witherspoon is a PI call or a deep TD waiting to happen I love E-Man but as I stated before, he struggles against WRs who are bigger and more physical granted, he does play bigger than he actually is. I think ppl need to find things to overreact about...to each his own YES the pass-rush helped. But there was a stretch there during the year where the rush was no existent and pass defense still held up well. The Saints game is the only game that you could really say the secondary didn't hold up. And I would say that had more to do with us missing Tartt than the CB play. https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-pff-rankings-top-25-cornerbacks-through-week-17 We have two of the top 15 rated CBs in the league. Not that PFF is the end all, be all, but it just confirms my own eye test. We are in better shape than most. Of course Sherm has lost a step. Doesn't stop him from being one of the best a his position. So what he can't press-man a guy like Hill. Newsflash: NO ONE can press Hill. I'm not about to condemn him for that. Spoon is frustrating to watch at times but I'm not ready to write him off just yet. He looked too good before his injury for me to do that. E-Man is just fine imo. Most CBs who aren't taller than 6'0 will have issues dealing with longer, bigger guys. He'll learn and improve. He showed enough potential for me not to nitpick that part of his game, in his first year playing substantially. Remember he was essential supposed to be a STs player for us this past season. Verrett was supposed to be that third guy in the mix with Spoon & Sherm. So I can give him leeway in trying to correct some of the holes in his game. Edited February 9, 2020 by 757-NINER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandomonium Posted February 9, 2020 Author Share Posted February 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, 757-NINER said: I think ppl need to find things to overreact about...to each his own YES the pass-rush helped. But there was a stretch there during the year where the rush was no existent and pass defense still held up well. The Saints game is the only game that you could really say the secondary didn't hold up. And I would say that had more to do with us missing Tartt than the CB play. https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-pff-rankings-top-25-cornerbacks-through-week-17 We have two of the top 15 rated CBs in the league. Not that PFF is the end all, be all, but it just confirms my own eye test. We are in better shape than most. Of course Sherm has lost a step. Doesn't stop him from being one of the best a his position. So what he can't press-man a guy like Hill. Newsflash: NO ONE can press Hill. I'm not about to condemn him for that. Spoon is frustrating to watch at times but I'm not ready to write him off just yet. He looked too good before his injury for me to do that. E-Man is just find. Most CBs who aren't taller than 6'0 will have issues dealing with longer, bigger guys. He'll learn and improve. He showed enough potential for me not to nitpick that part of his game. I wasn't even talking about hill I'm talking about how he got embarrassed by Devante Adams in the NFCCG and again by watkins in the SB What is it going to take for so many of you to stop putting your eggs in the Witherspoon basket. he botches more plays than he makes my question is what going to happen when we gt in a game like the superbowl where the refs REFUSE to call holding on the opponents' O-line or when we go against QBs who require us to cover a bit longer than normal (we have two in our division alone) the whole Idea of "We'll be fine with what we have" is as I said before, hubris we are no longer the underdogs and have a bullseye on our backs the attitude needs to be one of "how can we improve even though this area of the team is good" and seeing how this league is based on dropping back and slinging it. we should be trying to improve our ability to stop folks that want to drop back and sling it. you're entitled to your opinion though *shrugs* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 Honestly not even sure why you're mentioning Sherman. Yeah, he got burnt on a play by Adams. After he did an awesome job on Thielen and Diggs the week before. Yeah, he got beat by Watkins, who for some ungodly reason always seems to play well against us. But there is less than a 0% chance that he's not starting or playing next year. Replacing him isn't even in the realm of likely scenarios, and therefore shouldn't be discussed. And even if you wanted to replace him, you're probably not going to get someone who is immediately better in the free agent price range we can afford or by spending a first round pick on the position. So that's pointless to even discuss. If you're looking to replace Sherman, that's really more so down the line. So this really comes down to Spoon and Moseley. 15 minutes ago, Pandomonium said: What is it going to take for so many of you to stop putting your eggs in the Witherspoon basket. he botches more plays than he makes I can't speak for 757, only myself, but I'm answering this question from a perspective of what I think the front office is going to do. And I firmly believe, and feel quite positive that they are still pretty high on him and he will have every shot to earn that starting roster spot next year. Honestly, not even a question in my mind. I think that they know that he is up and down and capable of great play and bad play. Look at what he did against Tampa and arguably the best pair of wide receivers in the NFL. I think the front office is no doubt comfortable with Sherm / Moseley / Williams / Spoon, and therefore putting a lot of capital into the position is probably a non starter. Maybe they sign a free agent flier; I mentioned Rhodes before. My guess is that someone is going to overpay him, but lets say he takes some weird 1 year, 3 million dollar deal + incentives to play for us as a way to rebuild his stock and go after a ship. I could see him beating out both Spoon and Moseley for that starting spot as maybe the change in scheme does him some good. But I think it would take that kind of good fortunate / luck in a free agent flier signing that causes a shakeup in the corner back rotation. Otherwise, I think given the cost of Moseley and Spoon, how Moseley played this year and upside that Spoon has flashed, they are more than happy with that set up at that cost. 20 minutes ago, Pandomonium said: my question is what going to happen when we gt in a game like the superbowl where the refs REFUSE to call holding on the opponents' O-line or when we go against QBs who require us to cover a bit longer than normal (we have two in our division alone) They'll either hold up or they won't. I think you're looking for a perfect team and that's simply not realistic. Why is getting a corner a bigger priority than getting another wide receiver if Manny walks? The receivers were completely brutal this year before his arrival. Deebo broke out in the second half, but we need a complimentary piece there and its probably not coincidental that Deebo broke out when he was paired with a quality receiver such as that. Why is corner a bigger need than Right Guard, where Person consistently has problems with beastly interior rushers, causing massive problems for Jimmy who doesn't handle pressure all that well? These are decisions that have to go through triage. Why is it a bigger need than safety where the Jimmie Ward has a real chance at walking and the player replacing him is largely an unknown with 2 games starting under his belt? 22 minutes ago, Pandomonium said: the whole Idea of "We'll be fine with what we have" is as I said before, hubris How many teams do you think legitimately have a better 4 man corner depth chart than us? I'm legitimately curious, because I think whatever the number is, I feel like it may be too high. Our cb2 position isn't ideal. There are better situations out there for sure. But that is also the case for a lot of teams, including contenders. But it's hard to find a better 4 man depth chart across the league. It's not about, "we'll be fine". It's about triage as there is only so much money that can go around, only so many draft picks that can be made, etc. 24 minutes ago, Pandomonium said: the attitude needs to be one of "how can we improve even though this area of the team is good" and seeing how this league is based on dropping back and slinging it. we should be trying to improve our ability to stop folks that want to drop back and sling it. Why do you think that is the attitude of others when they simply don't agree that corner is likely to be as big of a priority? What if our priority is Right Guard? What if it's safety or receiver? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
757-NINER Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, Pandomonium said: I wasn't even talking about hill I'm talking about how he got embarrassed by Devante Adams in the NFCCG and again by watkins in the SB What is it going to take for so many of you to stop putting your eggs in the Witherspoon basket. he botches more plays than he makes my question is what going to happen when we gt in a game like the superbowl where the refs REFUSE to call holding on the opponents' O-line or when we go against QBs who require us to cover a bit longer than normal (we have two in our division alone) the whole Idea of "We'll be fine with what we have" is as I said before, hubris we are no longer the underdogs and have a bullseye on our backs the attitude needs to be one of "how can we improve even though this area of the team is good" and seeing how this league is based on dropping back and slinging it. we should be trying to improve our ability to stop folks that want to drop back and sling it. you're entitled to your opinion though *shrugs* He gave up ONE play to Adams in the two games he faced him this year. I mean I'm just not of the opinion CBs need to bat .1000 in order to be elite. So our guys are never to give up plays...like ever?? That's just not realistic. Like Forge said, the league has made it virtually impossible for these guys to have any chance at doing their job. You can't expect these guys to win every single battle. The WRs they are competing against a very good also. ALL CBs give up plays. You're not going to sign nor draft one who magically is always in position, always judges the ball correctly and always plays with proper technique/leverage. They're all going to lose sometimes. You just hope they win waaaay more than they lose. I think Sherman fits the latter... No where did I say Spoon is the answer. I simply said he showed be enough before his injury that I won't write him off just yet. He absolutely has to put a whole season together though and next year will be very telling on his future as a Niner. He will have to earn the right to start opposite Sherm in 2020. But even if he isn't starting, his talent as a 3rd CB is better than most. There are other areas on the team that need to be scrutinized much more than CB personally. I'm sure most would like us to be All-World at every position. But since this is virtually impossible, I can live comfortably with what we have at CB over interior O-Line and DE depth. But again, that's just me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
757-NINER Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, Forge said: Honestly not even sure why you're mentioning Sherman. Yeah, he got burnt on a play by Adams. After he did an awesome job on Thielen and Diggs the week before. Yeah, he got beat by Watkins, who for some ungodly reason always seems to play well against us. But there is less than a 0% chance that he's not starting or playing next year. Replacing him isn't even in the realm of likely scenarios, and therefore shouldn't be discussed. And even if you wanted to replace him, you're probably not going to get someone who is immediately better in the free agent price range we can afford or by spending a first round pick on the position. So that's pointless to even discuss. If you're looking to replace Sherman, that's really more so down the line. So this really comes down to Spoon and Moseley. I can't speak for 757, only myself, but I'm answering this question from a perspective of what I think the front office is going to do. And I firmly believe, and feel quite positive that they are still pretty high on him and he will have every shot to earn that starting roster spot next year. Honestly, not even a question in my mind. I think that they know that he is up and down and capable of great play and bad play. Look at what he did against Tampa and arguably the best pair of wide receivers in the NFL. I think the front office is no doubt comfortable with Sherm / Moseley / Williams / Spoon, and therefore putting a lot of capital into the position is probably a non starter. Maybe they sign a free agent flier; I mentioned Rhodes before. My guess is that someone is going to overpay him, but lets say he takes some weird 1 year, 3 million dollar deal + incentives to play for us as a way to rebuild his stock and go after a ship. I could see him beating out both Spoon and Moseley for that starting spot as maybe the change in scheme does him some good. But I think it would take that kind of good fortunate / luck in a free agent flier signing that causes a shakeup in the corner back rotation. Otherwise, I think given the cost of Moseley and Spoon, how Moseley played this year and upside that Spoon has flashed, they are more than happy with that set up at that cost. They'll either hold up or they won't. I think you're looking for a perfect team and that's simply not realistic. Why is getting a corner a bigger priority than getting another wide receiver if Manny walks? The receivers were completely brutal this year before his arrival. Deebo broke out in the second half, but we need a complimentary piece there and its probably not coincidental that Deebo broke out when he was paired with a quality receiver such as that. Why is corner a bigger need than Right Guard, where Person consistently has problems with beastly interior rushers, causing massive problems for Jimmy who doesn't handle pressure all that well? These are decisions that have to go through triage. Why is it a bigger need than safety where the Jimmie Ward has a real chance at walking and the player replacing him is largely an unknown with 2 games starting under his belt? How many teams do you think legitimately have a better 4 man corner depth chart than us? I'm legitimately curious, because I think whatever the number is, I feel like it may be too high. Our cb2 position isn't ideal. There are better situations out there for sure. But that is also the case for a lot of teams, including contenders. But it's hard to find a better 4 man depth chart across the league. It's not about, "we'll be fine". It's about triage as there is only so much money that can go around, only so many draft picks that can be made, etc. Why do you think that is the attitude of others when they simply don't agree that corner is likely to be as big of a priority? What if our priority is Right Guard? What if it's safety or receiver? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandomonium Posted February 9, 2020 Author Share Posted February 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, Forge said: Honestly not even sure why you're mentioning Sherman. Yeah, he got burnt on a play by Adams. After he did an awesome job on Thielen and Diggs the week before. Yeah, he got beat by Watkins, who for some ungodly reason always seems to play well against us. But there is less than a 0% chance that he's not starting or playing next year. Replacing him isn't even in the realm of likely scenarios, and therefore shouldn't be discussed. And even if you wanted to replace him, you're probably not going to get someone who is immediately better in the free agent price range we can afford or by spending a first round pick on the position. So that's pointless to even discuss. If you're looking to replace Sherman, that's really more so down the line. So this really comes down to Spoon and Moseley. I can't speak for 757, only myself, but I'm answering this question from a perspective of what I think the front office is going to do. And I firmly believe, and feel quite positive that they are still pretty high on him and he will have every shot to earn that starting roster spot next year. Honestly, not even a question in my mind. I think that they know that he is up and down and capable of great play and bad play. Look at what he did against Tampa and arguably the best pair of wide receivers in the NFL. I think the front office is no doubt comfortable with Sherm / Moseley / Williams / Spoon, and therefore putting a lot of capital into the position is probably a non starter. Maybe they sign a free agent flier; I mentioned Rhodes before. My guess is that someone is going to overpay him, but lets say he takes some weird 1 year, 3 million dollar deal + incentives to play for us as a way to rebuild his stock and go after a ship. I could see him beating out both Spoon and Moseley for that starting spot as maybe the change in scheme does him some good. But I think it would take that kind of good fortunate / luck in a free agent flier signing that causes a shakeup in the corner back rotation. Otherwise, I think given the cost of Moseley and Spoon, how Moseley played this year and upside that Spoon has flashed, they are more than happy with that set up at that cost. They'll either hold up or they won't. I think you're looking for a perfect team and that's simply not realistic. Why is getting a corner a bigger priority than getting another wide receiver if Manny walks? The receivers were completely brutal this year before his arrival. Deebo broke out in the second half, but we need a complimentary piece there and its probably not coincidental that Deebo broke out when he was paired with a quality receiver such as that. Why is corner a bigger need than Right Guard, where Person consistently has problems with beastly interior rushers, causing massive problems for Jimmy who doesn't handle pressure all that well? These are decisions that have to go through triage. Why is it a bigger need than safety where the Jimmie Ward has a real chance at walking and the player replacing him is largely an unknown with 2 games starting under his belt? How many teams do you think legitimately have a better 4 man corner depth chart than us? I'm legitimately curious, because I think whatever the number is, I feel like it may be too high. Our cb2 position isn't ideal. There are better situations out there for sure. But that is also the case for a lot of teams, including contenders. But it's hard to find a better 4 man depth chart across the league. It's not about, "we'll be fine". It's about triage as there is only so much money that can go around, only so many draft picks that can be made, etc. Why do you think that is the attitude of others when they simply don't agree that corner is likely to be as big of a priority? What if our priority is Right Guard? What if it's safety or receiver? I'm not saying to cut or even bench Sherman I think that is where the misunderstanding is that is NOT what i am advocating however I am not comfortable with the depth should he go down for one and I still think he is losing a step I like mosley better than spoon, he is a better tackler and has tremendously better ball skills to me spoon is just there for decoration in most instances Secondly I NEVER said that this was the only place we need improvement in. so to assume that I don't think we need IOL or Safety or WR (which is a whole 'nother discussion) is just baiting an argument by putting words in my mouth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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