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Rivera and Williams Have Connected

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6 hours ago, tredaddy said:

So the 'sports medicine' staff who refused to remove the cyst on 3 occasions or even test it for that matter gets a pass because they suggested a second opinion after repeatedly misdiagnosing and downplaying his cyst for 5+ years?  Considering he was weeks away from the cancer spreading to his brain, he doesn't have a right to vocalize the malpractice of team doctors for ignoring this issue since 2013?  Yikes my friend. 

Yes.  I completely disagree with your position, but there is a huge thread on this and all my thoughts are there.  

5 hours ago, turtle28 said:

Donald Penn missed 12 games in 2018 bc of injury. Trent Williams has never missed that many games in a season.

@turtle28 this is incredibly insincere.  You are a massive redskins fan and so you should know that Trent Williams health has been a mess for years.  His games played and started stats don't tell the picture.  He is often playing half the season on one leg and you know this as well as I do.  Donald Penn has actually been very fortunate to only have one major down year with his injury history and has been incredibly reliable throughout his career.  Trent Williams is obviously the superior player when 100%, but when do we get that for a season?  Penn gave us more last year than williams did the year before.  I am not arguing for Donald Penn to be our savior, I was just very accurately pointing out that we replaced Trent fairly easily and cheaply last year.

3 hours ago, turtle28 said:

For me, in the long run Trent did the Redskins fans a service bc his actions helped to rid us of the cancers known as Bruce Allen and Larry Hess.

You are now on board with the smear campaign against Larry Hess?  Larry Hess was fired for change for the sake of change and maybe to strike down the bad public image our medical staff received because of TW publicly trashing them.  That is all good, but I think it is very sad that a guy who dedicated most of his professional career to this team is being trashed for no reason at all.  Bundling him in the same boat as Bruce Allen is just not fair to the guy.  This is what happens when you entitle players and put them above the team.

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7 hours ago, tredaddy said:

So the 'sports medicine' staff who refused to remove the cyst on 3 occasions or even test it for that matter gets a pass because they suggested a second opinion after repeatedly misdiagnosing and downplaying his cyst for 5+ years? 

I don't have the time to explain how wrong I think this statement is but I'll try anyway. Let's go through it, shall we?

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So the 'sports medicine' staff who refused to remove the cyst on 3 occasions

The "sports medicine focused staff" are not going to remove what could be scar tissue as a result of repeatedly banging one's head inside a helmet and then create an issue where the player can't play. The 3 occasions that Trent is stipulating were (according to reports) also where the team told him to get an outside professional to take a look at it.

You cannot expect a doctor to be an expert in all realms of medicine. Doctors specialize. And because of that (and malpractice suits), they are loathe to go outside of their expertise. If a general practitioner tells you to have a specialist take a look at something, they are telling you that it is outside their expertise.

They are also not infallible. I once had a doctor tell me a bump on the back of my head was shingles. After 4 days of excruciating pain, I went to ANOTHER doctor and found out that  it turned out to be a cyst filled with bacteria (which turned out to be MRSA). 

I make tons less than Trent does and I was able to go get a 2nd opinion (that saved my life). Trent not owning his own health and situation is just excuses to me.

And there's a reason for Trent's excuse that I'll go into later

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or even test it for that matter 

Ever heard the saying "when you hear hooves, you think horses...not zebras"? That goes with medicine too. Contrary to our online MEd-MD doctorates (where if you look up symptoms online everyone thinks they have some rare disease), not every symptom is automatically cancer. So doctors are not going to automatically go with the most exotic diagnosis they can think of. They teach that in the first year of medical school (I know LOTS of doctors and my niece is currently in medical school right now).

Oh...so they didn't test for it? So tell me...exactly how many of the 32 teams have a lab that tests for cancer. 

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 gets a pass because they suggested a second opinion after repeatedly misdiagnosing and downplaying his cyst for 5+ years? 

see above. I was able to get a 2nd opinion (even when the doctor didn't tell me to I recognize something was wrong), why couldn't Trent?

Most probably they see a bump. Think it's the result of his skin rubbing against the helmet. Trent goes away and comes back and it's bigger. They tell him to see a 2nd opinion. He doesn't. And this repeats a few more times until...

...he does get a 2nd opinion, from an independent doctor (an oncologist this time, not a sports medicine doctor).

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Considering he was weeks away from the cancer spreading to his brain, he doesn't have a right to vocalize the malpractice of team doctors for ignoring this issue since 2013?  

Considering that he was told to get a 2nd opinion multiple times and didn't? No, IMHO. That's not malpractice. He ignored their instructions for years and then when it gets really worse, he then goes to get a 2nd opinion? Yeah...that's on Trent

Make no mistake, Trent's contract does not preclude him from going to any outside doctor he wants to go to. And he certainly has the $ to pay for it.

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Yikes my friend. 

Yikes, indeed. 

Because, IMHO, this was about $$ and has always been about $$. IMHO this is how it went down:

  1. Trent's not stupid. He knows that he should've gone to get the 2nd opinion, and didn't.
  2. But...he's blown through the 3 years of his contract that have guaranteed $$ and now is looking at the remaining years of the contract where he is actually cap friendly to the team (no guaranteed $) and wants a new contract.
  3. So he uses the cancer scare as a convenient foil to shelter himself from criticism as he slanders the medical staff en route to trying to get a new deal. He does this to prevent criticism for being greedy
  4. The Redskins balk at this because they know that they did nothing wrong vis-a-vis his cyst
  5. Trent then holds out in hopes of forcing the Redskins to give him a new contract. He's banking on fans being upset about "not treating him for cancer" and hoping that forces the team to try to do a new deal
  6. After he finally reports, he has now shifted his ire now that Bruce is dangling by a thread and [switching blame] tells everyone that he held out because of Bruce's handling of the situation
  7. The Redskins cannot publicly say anything due to HIPAA laws. So they request an independent review of the situation
  8. Trent refuses to participate in the review
  9. If Trent was telling the truth, there's literally zero reason to not agree to the independent review of this specific case. It's done ALL the time in the medical field where that case and that case only is reviewed. Trent refusing to agree to it, sends up tons of red flags to me

This was a garden-variety contract dispute and holdout. It was made a tad more exotic by Trent using the cancer scare as the excuse. Meanwhile, through proxies and then by himself to the media, Trent slandered people. 

I've been over this, it seems like a thousand times. Trent played every single one of the fans in Redskins nation who currently are on fainting couches about how he was done wrong by the team because they refused to treat him for cancer and we're so glad he got Bruce fired <-- paraphrasing of course, but this is the general gist of the sentiment of much of the fanbase and why he used it to great effect to try to force open Dan's wallet and look like the good guy, instead of a guy trying to holdout for more money when he still has 2 years left on his contract.

Just my $0.02

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1 hour ago, offbyone said:

Yes.  I completely disagree with your position, but there is a huge thread on this and all my thoughts are there.  

@turtle28 this is incredibly insincere.  You are a massive redskins fan and so you should know that Trent Williams health has been a mess for years.  His games played and started stats don't tell the picture.  He is often playing half the season on one leg and you know this as well as I do.  Donald Penn has actually been very fortunate to only have one major down year with his injury history and has been incredibly reliable throughout his career.  Trent Williams is obviously the superior player when 100%, but when do we get that for a season?  Penn gave us more last year than williams did the year before.  I am not arguing for Donald Penn to be our savior, I was just very accurately pointing out that we replaced Trent fairly easily and cheaply last year.

You are now on board with the smear campaign against Larry Hess?  Larry Hess was fired for change for the sake of change and maybe to strike down the bad public image our medical staff received because of TW publicly trashing them.  That is all good, but I think it is very sad that a guy who dedicated most of his professional career to this team is being trashed for no reason at all.  Bundling him in the same boat as Bruce Allen is just not fair to the guy.  This is what happens when you entitle players and put them above the team.

I'm with you with the exception of Hess. Hess is not the team doctor. He is the strength and conditioning guy. We've been at the bottom in injuries for as long as I remember. That goes to the S&C team as they are clearly doing something wrong. 

Now, it might not have been Hess' fault (maybe another trainer?) but at some point, it's not your fault, it's your butt.

But yes. We are in complete agreement on Trent. Thank you.

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Guys. I'll repeat what I've said before and leave it at that.

If we get anything remotely close to a fair offer for Trent, we need to trade him and move on. Loads of negatives associated with him  (that @offbyone, @naptownskinsfan, and I have identified in the past) and we don't know what Trent we're getting now. I'd rather not deal with the ultimate implosion which is Trent Williams (and a big extension). Trade him for a 2nd and move on. There are ways of protecting your QB without a lock down LT. Quite a few good/great/elite QBs have done it without a top 5 LT. We can manage without him. Let him be some other team's headache.

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We didn’t replace Trent. Donald Penn wasn’t close to what Trent usually gave us even when he was playing on one leg. That’s not being insincere, that’s being dead honest. We can run so many different things in the screen game etc with Trent bc he gets out in the flat and clears the way for WRs & RBs, we did little of that last year bc we didn’t have the athleticism of Trent at LT.

Penn was serviceable at LT but honestly we got lucky as hell he was able to give us one more serviceable year in his career, thinking we’d get another one is wishful thinking at best.

Anyways, I’ve been done with this topic for months. I’ve made my decision. I want him back. I would have traded him last summer or fall, but we didn’t. Now that Allen and Hess are gone it seems Trent wants back and Rivera wants him back. I trust Rivera and I’ve never really wanted to get rid of Trent anyways, I just thought we wouldn’t get rid of Allen so I thought we should just trade Trent last year, but not now.

I’m as done with this topic as much as I am with discussing trading down from the #2 two pick for some lesser prospects and then wishing in 2 years that we had drafted Chase Young.

I’m more than done with both of them. My mind is made up.

Edited by turtle28

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Oh and @tredaddy, welcome to the forum. If you can, please go to the "Tell Us about Yourself" thread and introduce yourself!

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47 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

I'm with you with the exception of Hess. Hess is not the team doctor. He is the strength and conditioning guy. We've been at the bottom in injuries for as long as I remember. That goes to the S&C team as they are clearly doing something wrong. 

Now, it might not have been Hess' fault (maybe another trainer?) but at some point, it's not your fault, it's your butt.

But yes. We are in complete agreement on Trent. Thank you.

I am not suggesting Hess was the best in the business or his program should not be scrutinized.  Rather simply that everything I have always heard was that he was dedicated to the team, and his job.  I always heard he treated the players well and got the impression he did his job to the best of his ability.  I just think it is a shame that he walks away from nearly 20 years with the team and is now viewed as some kind of evil guy who is responsible for all our injury woes and definitely Trent William's cancer.   

Hopefully they improve the program.  But I stand by my statement that they replaced Hess for the sake of change nothing more.  Lets be honest, they didn't interview 10 guys and consider some major revamp with new tech and some young new guy with a modern approach.  No, they just brought in Rivera's old friend and old like he's old, he ain't some young up and coming innovator.  That is all good, but he is just another guy in the business.  It isn't like carolina has been a picture of health and perfect recovery, look at Cam Newton and his constant injuries and he is always coming back too soon.  Sound familiar?  But i'm sure we won't have any injuries at all anymore, I mean it's just football, players shouldn't get injured :)

 

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54 minutes ago, offbyone said:

I am not suggesting Hess was the best in the business or his program should not be scrutinized.  Rather simply that everything I have always heard was that he was dedicated to the team, and his job.  I always heard he treated the players well and got the impression he did his job to the best of his ability.  I just think it is a shame that he walks away from nearly 20 years with the team and is now viewed as some kind of evil guy who is responsible for all our injury woes and definitely Trent William's cancer.   

Hopefully they improve the program.  But I stand by my statement that they replaced Hess for the sake of change nothing more.  Lets be honest, they didn't interview 10 guys and consider some major revamp with new tech and some young new guy with a modern approach.  No, they just brought in Rivera's old friend and old like he's old, he ain't some young up and coming innovator.  That is all good, but he is just another guy in the business.  It isn't like carolina has been a picture of health and perfect recovery, look at Cam Newton and his constant injuries and he is always coming back too soon.  Sound familiar?  But i'm sure we won't have any injuries at all anymore, I mean it's just football, players shouldn't get injured :)

 

I agree here. I think they brought in the guys who Rivera was comfortable with and unfortunately Hess was just too associated with years of lost games by injured players. 

I'm not suggesting that we won't ever get injuries again, but if we're still consistently in the bottom of the teams in injuries for the next 3-4 years, then we need to get rid of these new guys too.

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On 2/12/2020 at 3:16 PM, lavar703 said:

Why? Why create an unnecessary hole on the roster? 

Yes. Let's fill it by extending a guy that is past his prime and hasn't played 16 games in a long time... a guy who is standing on a smoldering bridge. 

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11 hours ago, Thaiphoon said:

Guys. I'll repeat what I've said before and leave it at that.

If we get anything remotely close to a fair offer for Trent, we need to trade him and move on. Loads of negatives associated with him  (that @offbyone, @naptownskinsfan, and I have identified in the past) and we don't know what Trent we're getting now. I'd rather not deal with the ultimate implosion which is Trent Williams (and a big extension). Trade him for a 2nd and move on. There are ways of protecting your QB without a lock down LT. Quite a few good/great/elite QBs have done it without a top 5 LT. We can manage without him. Let him be some other team's headache.

I'm just not sure it's that easy. 

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1 hour ago, MikeT14 said:

I'm just not sure it's that easy. 

Which? Trading him away? Or protecting your QB without a Top-5 LT?

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Just now, Thaiphoon said:

Which? Trading him away? Or protecting your QB without a Top-5 LT?

Specifically getting a 2nd round pick 

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Just now, Thaiphoon said:

Which? Trading him away? Or protecting your QB without a Top-5 LT?

Trading him away should be relatively easy depending on what compensation the front office is holding out for. 
Protecting Haskins without him is another problem. Penn was ok at best and will be a year older. Protecting Haskins has to be priority 1 (outside of Chase Young) and they just don’t have the resources to replace Trent this offseason

 

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4 minutes ago, MikeT14 said:

Specifically getting a 2nd round pick 

Oh, yeah. Just throwing it out there. I'd take a 2nd this year or a 3rd/4th this year and a 2nd in 2021. If someone is trading for him, they think he's going to return to his top game. So I don't think they'd offer nothing. 

But if we don't get those offers? We tell him that he's got one more year on his contract and we'll be happy to talk extension once he reports and shows us he is still in shape to play. Otherwise, I'm not buying the pig in the poke.

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4 minutes ago, bigdog44 said:

Trading him away should be relatively easy depending on what compensation the front office is holding out for. 
Protecting Haskins without him is another problem. Penn was ok at best and will be a year older. Protecting Haskins has to be priority 1 (outside of Chase Young) and they just don’t have the resources to replace Trent this offseason

 

Trust me I get it. But everyone is apoplectic at not having a Top 5 LT protecting Dwayne.

There are 32 teams in the league. I'm pretty sure quite a lot of the other 27 teams (not all though - some just didn't) have figured out a way to manage without a Top 5 LT. 

Keep Penn, draft an OT (or a couple). And then chip the end with a back coming out of the backfield or double him with a TE on some downs. It can be done.

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