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LionArkie

Trading Stafford

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45 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

I think if we get Fromm, we have to acknowledge he is a game manager or at least that is how I view him.  I think it will be incredibly important to build the team around him.

*Meaning great defense and a running game <broken record, I know>.

The thing with a guy like that, operating as a game manager, is how do you determine how to pay him? With all of the contracts one-upping each other, a guy that isn't a playmaker in the Mahomes/Lamar category still can have value. They aren't losing you games with bad decision making (a la Jameis and his INT's). Does he sign for less money than the next guy? Do you replace him towards the end of his contract in 4 years? 

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1 hour ago, Karnage84 said:

The thing with a guy like that, operating as a game manager, is how do you determine how to pay him? With all of the contracts one-upping each other, a guy that isn't a playmaker in the Mahomes/Lamar category still can have value. They aren't losing you games with bad decision making (a la Jameis and his INT's). Does he sign for less money than the next guy? Do you replace him towards the end of his contract in 4 years? 

If you win games with him, you keep him.  You pay him fairly, whatever that means.  If you lose because your team is bad around him and he can't carry it, and you pay him a ton...then it's time to move on.

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9 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

If you win games with him, you keep him.  You pay him fairly, whatever that means.  If you lose because your team is bad around him and he can't carry it, and you pay him a ton...then it's time to move on.

Let's just say that we have a Jake Fromm type now on a rookie deal. Dak Prescott is looking for $35M+ and assume that he does get it (or someone else gets paid like that). Is the Jake Fromm type going to accept less than $35M? Is the market going to support that? How much of the W's are this guy not losing games as much as it is the other pieces winning them?

It's just an interesting thought to me. 

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2 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Let's just say that we have a Jake Fromm type now on a rookie deal. Dak Prescott is looking for $35M+ and assume that he does get it (or someone else gets paid like that). Is the Jake Fromm type going to accept less than $35M? Is the market going to support that? How much of the W's are this guy not losing games as much as it is the other pieces winning them?

It's just an interesting thought to me. 

Maybe he doesn't take it.  But the beauty of building a team through defense and offensive line is to have a plug and play qb.  Rather than having to worry about a 35 million dollar qb, I am confident I can pick one up in the 3-4th rounds.  mark rypien looked like a stud on the redskins as did doug williams.  I think if you build the team right, you don't have to worry about it. We need to be the sort of team that when Stafford, Fromm or whoever goes down, we can keep going forward similar to the Saints this year when Brees went down.  It is of my opinion, this is only accomplished through tough defense and a good OL.

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5 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

Maybe he doesn't take it.  But the beauty of building a team through defense and offensive line is to have a plug and play qb.  Rather than having to worry about a 35 million dollar qb, I am confident I can pick one up in the 3-4th rounds.  mark rypien looked like a stud on the redskins as did doug williams.  I think if you build the team right, you don't have to worry about it. We need to be the sort of team that when Stafford, Fromm or whoever goes down, we can keep going forward similar to the Saints this year when Brees went down.  It is of my opinion, this is only accomplished through tough defense and a good OL.

Maybe. You also can't keep turning over at QB like you can at RB or WR. OL is really the key to the offense. Good teams have a good OL. 

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12 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Maybe. You also can't keep turning over at QB like you can at RB or WR. OL is really the key to the offense. Good teams have a good OL. 

I agree.  But that's also assuming a qb, in your example Fromm, won't stay and there is no way to know what a qb is going to do 5 years down the road.  With a game manager, it would be important to make sure you have the next one in waiting. But yes no matter what, it comes down to the OL and that's why it should take precedence over other things on offense.

Edited by LionArkie

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29 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

I agree.  But that's also assuming a qb, in your example Fromm, won't stay and there is no way to know what a qb is going to do 5 years down the road.  With a game manager, it would be important to make sure you have the next one in waiting. But yes no matter what, it comes down to the OL and that's why it should take precedence over other things on offense.

I'm just saying that as contracts expire, the next guy always tries to outdo the last guy. Let's say that Mahomes gets his $40M. In five years, at a 6% increase per year (which is actually looking to be about 1/3 of the growth from Stafford's contract in 2017) we're looking at the top QB salary being $53M. Regardless of what the salary cap winds up being, that is an insane amount of money for a QB let alone a game manager. 

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1 hour ago, Karnage84 said:

I'm just saying that as contracts expire, the next guy always tries to outdo the last guy. Let's say that Mahomes gets his $40M. In five years, at a 6% increase per year (which is actually looking to be about 1/3 of the growth from Stafford's contract in 2017) we're looking at the top QB salary being $53M. Regardless of what the salary cap winds up being, that is an insane amount of money for a QB let alone a game manager. 

I wouldn't pay a game manager that. I'd like to have a qb in waiting on a rookie scale or a good backup to take over, Nick Foles anyone?  I still think the OL will improve the qb play and you can get away with less talent at qb by doing so.  I also think we need to have a similar definition of what a game manager is.  We may be way off on our descriptions.

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11 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

Let's just say that we have a Jake Fromm type now on a rookie deal. Dak Prescott is looking for $35M+ and assume that he does get it (or someone else gets paid like that). Is the Jake Fromm type going to accept less than $35M? Is the market going to support that? How much of the W's are this guy not losing games as much as it is the other pieces winning them?

It's just an interesting thought to me. 

See, I thought about that as well. I don't think you pay a game manager $35M+. I don't think you pay Dak anywhere near that amount. The beauty of having a team that can win with a game manager is that you wont have a quarterback making a top salary.

Instead of investing $35M into the quarterback position, you can pay two additional elite players. Every three years, you go out and draft that next game manager in the 2nd-3rd round and let him sit for one year. The only time you pay one of those quarterbacks a top salary is when they've shown that they're a top player.

This year is a perfect example: just look at the Bengals. They're most likely going to take Burrow, and I get it, but is Burrow really better than the haul that they could get for him? If the Dolphins offered two 1sts (#5 and #18), their 2nd (#39) and a future 1st for the pick, shouldn't the Bengals accept? And, once at #5, shouldn't they trade down again? If Cleveland offered their 1st (#10) and 2nd (#41), wouldn't it be worth it?

Option #1: Joe Burrow

Option #2: #10, #18, #39, #41, MIA Future 1st

In a draft this deep, wouldn't it be far better to accumulate four great prospects and another potential top 5 pick than just one player? Off the top of my head: Jeudy or Lamb at #10, Epenesa at #18, Fromm at #39 and Baun at #41. You've got two defensive cornerstones, one elite offensive weapon and a game manager developing behind Dalton for one more year.

I dunno. I'm not sure what the right answer is, or if there even is one. I'm just not sold on the requirement to keep shuffling through quarterbacks until you find one that can "carry a team", vice building a team and finding a quarterback that can be successful with a strong supporting cast.

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I would be astounded if the Lions trade Stafford or draft Tua.

Its just not the direction a team in win now mode would do as either move indicates a retooling. I don’t think Quinn and Patricia have that luxury.

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