What is truth?

[dll2000]

Hey I just realized that is what Pontius Pilate said to Jesus.  I didn’t mean to do that. 

What is truth about 4 players that had terrible 2019s is my question. 

1.  Cohen.  Dynamic playmaker of 2017 and 18 who nearly brought Bears back in many games with dynamic punt returns and was often only legitimate Bears play maker and offensive threat in several games.  Hands of glue adjusting to many bad passes.  Converting countless third downs by making people miss.

Or dropsy player who can’t break a tackle or get open and is basically a  waste of space in 2019?

2. Daniels. Fundamental Young stud who made some assignment mistakes in 2018, but showed future all pro promise.

Or weak player who easily gets swum, is often overpowered, and still blows assignments in 2019?

3. Nichols.  Young stud who showed flashes of greatness in 2018 learning under Hicks wing?  Or guy that disappeared in 2019? Just his hand? 

4. Miller.  Is it the chronic shoulder? Is shoulder thing going to be every year?    Is it his head with too many mistakes?  Is it the QB who misses him when he is open?  Is it a combination?  Can he be good?  

 

[topwop1]

On 2/18/2020 at 12:21 PM, dll2000 said:

Hey I just realized that is what Pontius Pilate said to Jesus.  I didn’t mean to do that. 

What is truth about 4 players that had terrible 2019s is my question. 

1.  Cohen.  Dynamic playmaker of 2017 and 18 who nearly brought Bears back in many games with dynamic punt returns and was often only legitimate Bears play maker and offensive threat in several games.  Hands of glue adjusting to many bad passes.  Converting countless third downs by making people miss.

Or dropsy player who can’t break a tackle or get open and is basically a  waste of space in 2019?

2. Daniels. Fundamental Young stud who made some assignment mistakes in 2018, but showed future all pro promise.

Or weak player who easily gets swum, is often overpowered, and still blows assignments in 2019?

3. Nichols.  Young stud who showed flashes of greatness in 2018 learning under Hicks wing?  Or guy that disappeared in 2019? Just his hand? 

4. Miller.  Is it the chronic shoulder? Is shoulder thing going to be every year?    Is it his head with too many mistakes?  Is it the QB who misses him when he is open?  Is it a combination?  Can he be good?  

 

1.  Cohen is without a doubt a dynamic player with the ball in his hands, but that's just it, whenever he manages to get it in his hands and he's not fumbling it away or dropping easily catch-able balls.

I don't think he's a waste of space and he still serves a purpose on this team, but he needs limited touches and cannot be a featured player on offense.  I also don't know that I'm signing him to a big long term extension after his deal's up because I believe you can find someone just as good and cheaper in the draft.

2.  Daniels I believe had a typical sophomore slump, but that he will rebound in 2020 because he's got the talent, as he showed in college and in his rookie season in 2018.  The whole O-line was crap last year so it's not fair to over scrutinize Daniels since they all work together as a unit. Not worried about this kid.

3.  Same as above.  The hand injury obviously didn't help matters since DL are constantly using their hands to punch, grab and to gain leverage on opposing blockers, it's fair to suggest that the injury impacted his play in 2019.  I think he'll turn out to be just fine.

4. Miller has the talent and swagger but I think he needs to keep his head on straight if he is ever going to be a special player for us.  I hope with more maturity and understanding of the offense he will develop into the player we thought.  He has shown flashes, just needs more consistency. I do worry about the shoulders though, since his injuries there date back to college.  Might be a chronic issue he has to deal with his whole career.  Again, as with Cohen, I would be in no rush to sign this guy to an extension any time soon until I see more.

[abstract_thought]

1. Dynamic but inconsistent player who needs to be used more as a slot WR.

2. Quality prospect who had trouble adjusting to the mental aspects of playing a new position and never got on track.

3. Quality player who was hurt. He's a HWS athleticism type of guy and the injury held him back.

4. Best player of this group and extremely underrated among Bears fans. Has the talent to be a high level 2nd WR. He's held back by the guy playing QB.

[dll2000]

6 minutes ago, abstract_thought said:

1. Dynamic but inconsistent player who needs to be used more as a slot WR.

See that was conventional wisdom in 2019 and it blew up in their face.  Defense treated him as a WR and not a RB and he no longer had the favorable coverage match ups.  

2. Quality prospect who had trouble adjusting to the mental aspects of playing a new position and never got on track.

I think that was part of it, but it doesn't explain how he kept losing to swim moves and often got over powered in 2019.  He was visibly weaker at point of attack in 2019 vs. 2018.  

3. Quality player who was hurt. He's a HWS athleticism type of guy and the injury held him back.

Likely true. 

4. Best player of this group and extremely underrated among Bears fans. Has the talent to be a high level 2nd WR. He's held back by the guy playing QB.

I think if he was healthy that may be true.  I think the shoulder thing is really limiting him and it may not be something that is ever going away.  

 

[Heinz D.]

1) Cohen--A profoundly limited player, mostly by his lack of size and his aversion to contact (which may be a related issue). Once defenses figured out the Bears would use him often, but only within a tightly controlled number of ways...he was done as an effective player. The only way he will ever be effective in an NFL offense is if he's a lightly used, change-of-pace back. Which Nagy seems unable to accept. Because of that, the sooner he's no longer on the team, the better it is FOR the team. Let's hope it's in the next couple of months. 

2) Daniels--Suffered a sophomore slump for whatever reason. The rest of the offensive line fell apart as well...making one wonder just what the hell was going on there. A high likelihood Daniels becomes a perennial Pro Bowl type guy for years to come.

3) Nichols--Probably an above average (3-4) defensive lineman. He'll flash, he'll be solid at times, but that's about it. 

4) Miller--A receiver who has all the tools, and the drive, to be an outstanding player in this league. He was limited by a completely inconsistent quarterback who relied far too much on a single target. His injury issues shouldn't be a concern, but see we'll what happens down the road. Miller has what it takes to be a star. Anybody laughingly discounting that statement after Miller's first two bedeviling years in the league simply don't know their ****. 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Heinz D.

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

On 2/22/2020 at 6:52 PM, Heinz D. said:

1) Cohen--A profoundly limited player, mostly by his lack of size and his aversion to contact (which may be a related issue). Once defenses figured out the Bears would use him often, but only within a tightly controlled number of ways...he was done as an effective player. The only way he will ever be effective in an NFL offense is if he's a lightly used, change-of-pace back. Which Nagy seems unable to accept. Because of that, the sooner he's no longer on the team, the better it is FOR the team. Let's hope it's in the next couple of months. 

2) Daniels--Suffered a sophomore slump for whatever reason. The rest of the offensive line fell apart as well...making one wonder just what the hell was going on there. A high likelihood Daniels becomes a perennial Pro Bowl type guy for years to come.

3) Nichols--Probably an above average (3-4) defensive lineman. He'll flash, he'll be solid at times, but that's about it. 

4) Miller--A receiver who has all the tools, and the drive, to be an outstanding player in this league. He was limited by a completely inconsistent quarterback who relied far too much on a single target. His injury issues shouldn't be a concern, but see we'll what happens down the road. Miller has what it takes to be a star. Anybody laughingly discounting that statement after Miller's first two bedeviling years in the league simply don't know their ****. 

I totally agree, but would add:

 

1) I think the Eagles playoff game is a microcosm for how Cohen gets neutralized: if there's no tight end to threaten the linebackers they rotate right to him when it's obvious the ball is going his way.  I actually want to keep him around but he will only look good in a functioning offense. 

2) Yeah

3) Yeah

4) I think if has a healthy year and the QB can locate him he's going to be very very good. 

[soulman]

First of all the definition of TRUTH seems stretched to it's limits these days but that not a discussion for here so......

All good comments and I see much of it the same way.  But here's my own take on it.

Cohen - typically misused as even change of pace RB. Last year he looked like another Garrett Wolfe trying to run inside the tackles.  So whoever thought that was a good idea?  He's still a Pro Bowl PR and one of only two big play guys we have, the other being Patterson. I can't see us moving on from him yet even though his 2020 cap costs bumped up mightily.  But he is gonna have to produce much better if he expects to stick around after 2020.  Hopefully Nagy and his crew will begin using him properly again.  He needs space.

Daniels - IIRC he spoke about getting stronger during the offseason.  That may have been to accommodate HH and his style of coaching but it's obvious that didn't work out well and according to the roster stats he's still listed at 305lbs.  At that weight it seems to me he's gonna be far better off depending on his quickness and technique.  Hopefully Castillo can get that squared around and get all of them focused on their assignments.  So much of what we saw as bad blocking looked like either a poor scheme or a poor understanding of it.

Nichols - It seems we also went through this with RRH as well before he more fully grasped his role and another guy we can look at is Nick Williams who spent 4 years in the NFL before having what for him was a career year.  A hand injury also impacted Floyd's impact until it healed so I think we have to give the kid a pass for 2019 and see how well he bounces back just as we did with RRH and Nick Williams.  He's only 23 and the entire DL and Mack suffered once Hicks went down.  Hicks is a beast and a game changer.

Miller - The shoulder deal bears watching but as far as his play goes once Furrey got him paying attention to the need to run his routes more precisely and stop freelancing he became a far more productive WR.  His stats improved in most every other area except TDs and how much of that was on him vs Mitch vs play calling vs scheme who the hell knows?  He's still below what we should expect from a solid #2 WR but he'll get his shot at getting to that level in 2020.  I still like the kid, his attitude, and his toughness.

 

The offense was such a mess in 2019 it's difficult to sort out all of the whys which is the job Nagy and his new guys have in front of them now and have had since January we hope.  I still feel Mitch is a big part of it.  He's the conductor of the offensive orchestra and the leader of the band.  Poor leadership at that position leads to many train wrecks and that's a lot of what we saw.  Those writers who keep hammering home Mitch as the biggest problem IMHO are not wrong.  His inconsistency, inaccuracy, timidity, confusion, and failure to take charge are at the root of many of that offenses problems.  Unless someone can "fix" him it's not gonna get much better either.

[Heinz D.]

5 hours ago, soulman said:

First of all the definition of TRUTH seems stretched to it's limits these days but that not a discussion for here so......

Where you been, old timer? 

[soulman]

11 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

Where you been, old timer? 

Just a ton of distractions Heinz and really not having all that much to say.  The issues last season were pretty obvious to all but not the solutions so I figured I wait to see how Pace and Nagy decided to go about dealing with all of it.  They never consult with me anyway.

I was never certain Helfrich was the right guy to bring in as an OC anyway but I do believe HH got thrown under the bus along with him.

It's been quite awhile since I've ever seen the Bears running game struggle as much as they did last year and I guess I'm searching for answers just like everyone else.  One issue for me has been my belief that Nagy is simply not a fan of a run oriented offense and really doesn't know how to scheme it well and how to use it.  It's human nature to avoid things we lack confidence in and Nagy's play calling indicated he had little faith and confidence in his running schemes despite having two hand picked RBs to produce with.

So we rebuilt the offensive coaching staff bringing in run gurus like Lazor and Castillo to straighten it out.  I saw a whole lot of confusion and missed assignments which points more toward issues with the scheme as a whole than with talent but that still leaves the question of whether or not Nagy will employ it more in 2020 than he has in the past?  Also, how much of that confusion may have been created by Mitch's failure to recognize and make the correct pre-snap line calls and can we expect any improvement there?

Then we have the biggest elephant in the room.  Whatta ya' do about Mitch?  I'm seeing the hire of DeFilippo as a last ditch effort to turn Mitch into a complete and confident QB who can lead his offense.  This is pretty much his last shot to own his offense which leads us to the need for another QB to take over even in 2020 should he fail.  Now the question is who and there have been fewer names that haven't been mentioned than those who have.  Outside of continuing to support Mitch I dunno what Pace will decide but we should know soon enough.  I've taken a shot at my two best guesses but Pace has a habit of shocking us all so who knows what'll happen.

[dll2000]

6 hours ago, soulman said:

Just a ton of distractions Heinz and really not having all that much to say.  The issues last season were pretty obvious to all but not the solutions so I figured I wait to see how Pace and Nagy decided to go about dealing with all of it.  They never consult with me anyway.

I was never certain Helfrich was the right guy to bring in as an OC anyway but I do believe HH got thrown under the bus along with him.

It's been quite awhile since I've ever seen the Bears running game struggle as much as they did last year and I guess I'm searching for answers just like everyone else.  One issue for me has been my belief that Nagy is simply not a fan of a run oriented offense and really doesn't know how to scheme it well and how to use it.  It's human nature to avoid things we lack confidence in and Nagy's play calling indicated he had little faith and confidence in his running schemes despite having two hand picked RBs to produce with.

So we rebuilt the offensive coaching staff bringing in run gurus like Lazor and Castillo to straighten it out.  I saw a whole lot of confusion and missed assignments which points more toward issues with the scheme as a whole than with talent but that still leaves the question of whether or not Nagy will employ it more in 2020 than he has in the past?  Also, how much of that confusion may have been created by Mitch's failure to recognize and make the correct pre-snap line calls and can we expect any improvement there?

Then we have the biggest elephant in the room.  Whatta ya' do about Mitch?  I'm seeing the hire of DeFilippo as a last ditch effort to turn Mitch into a complete and confident QB who can lead his offense.  This is pretty much his last shot to own his offense which leads us to the need for another QB to take over even in 2020 should he fail.  Now the question is who and there have been fewer names that haven't been mentioned than those who have.  Outside of continuing to support Mitch I dunno what Pace will decide but we should know soon enough.  I've taken a shot at my two best guesses but Pace has a habit of shocking us all so who knows what'll happen.

I think the scheme is okay on paper.  When guys are missing assignments its on coaches and players.  When a lot of guys are missing assignments its on coaches.

One guy can just be dumb.  But then he should be benched, so its still on coaches IMO.

I say okay on paper, but for example when your scheme calls for TE to block EMLOS and he can't do it again and again then you should either actually practice it until it works on grass or change the scheme.

They were just like you have to come horizontal along  LINE OF SCRIMMAGE and cut or wham this guy.  We can't practice that because we don't want our guys hurt, but you do it in the game.  Okay?  Then it doesn't happen in game.  That really pisses me off.

Figure out a way to practice it, because you suck at it and you are wasting downs.  Critical downs.  

 

 

 

 

[soulman]

7 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

I think the scheme is okay on paper.  When guys are missing assignments its on coaches and players.  When a lot of guys are missing assignments its on coaches.

One guy can just be dumb.  But then he should be benched, so its still on coaches IMO.

I say okay on paper, but for example when your scheme calls for TE to block EMLOS and he can't do it again and again then you should either actually practice it until it works on grass or change the scheme.

They were just like you have to come horizontal along  LINE OF SCRIMMAGE and cut or wham this guy.  We can't practice that because we don't want our guys hurt, but you do it in the game.  Okay?  Then it doesn't happen in game.  That really pisses me off.

Figure out a way to practice it, because you suck at it and you are wasting downs.  Critical downs.  

 

 

 

 

This may be where the limitations the CBA places on contact and padded practices has hurt.  Then during the season guys are healing from a previous game so how much more contact should they have during the week?  So most everything is either class room based or walk throughs which can always look good on paper but seldom do when your guys are getting their ***** handed to them on game day.  Don't know about you but listening to Nagy always claiming they had a great week of practices got pretty offensive after awhile.

Now I say this not because I agree with it but because it is what it is or at least seems to be.  HH is a very good OL coach but then in college he didn't have those kind of limitations to deal with nor did he have them the last time he was OL coach here back in the '00s.

The disturbing thing is that trading Jordan Howard helped nothing.  Davis and Montgomery were billed as the solution and what happened?  Davis never even got a shot and Montgomery was woefully under used because Nagy had no confidence in his running game most of the time.  Now whether his run blocking schemes just suck or HH had a hard time teaching them I can't say but what we do know is Nagy is pretty much a pass first guy so it's possible that bringing in Lazor and Castillo is an admission on his part the he needs help.

One think I do know is that Mitch is never gonna succeed with a decent running game that will allow him to use play action effectively and that throwing 50 passes a game is more like playing Madden or FF than actual NFL Football.  IMHO we don't have to "get off the bus running" but for cripes sake let's not leave the bus parked in the frickin' garage again this year.

[Heinz D.]

11 hours ago, soulman said:

They never consult with me anyway.

They need to...

[soulman]

14 minutes ago, Heinz D. said:

They need to...

True......but Pace said they can't afford me.