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Why Rebuild Now


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Well, I don't see this roster anywhere near good enough to beat SF, or most of the great AFC teams. So I have no interest in "filling 1-2 holes"......They just aren't a great team. Good, yes. Very good, maybe. But not great. So I'd have no issue if they blew up parts of the team. 

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11 minutes ago, PrplChilPill said:

Well, I don't see this roster anywhere near good enough to beat SF, or most of the great AFC teams. So I have no interest in "filling 1-2 holes"......They just aren't a great team. Good, yes. Very good, maybe. But not great. So I'd have no issue if they blew up parts of the team. 

I don't see a "great" team in the entire NFL right now.  The 49ers may be more talented at this point, but I wouldn't put them...or any team in the AFC, in the category of a great team.  I think all of the teams have lots of flaws.  For example, the Chiefs, who will be without Chris Jones, aren't going to be the same team.  He drove that defense to competence, which allowed Mahomes to play his game.  The 49ers, as long as Garoppolo is who he is, is certainly going to be a good team, but a beatable team.  The Vikings are in the mix among those good teams.  

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The whole question of whether the team should "rebuild" or just "retool" probably comes down to how much faith the Wilfs have in Mike Zimmer's vision of how to build a championship team.  As we all know, Zim wants a team based on elite defense and an offense that's good enough to score enough points to get the job done.  Some of us still think that's the way to get to the promised land. 

There is another camp that believes that we have run the course with our roster and that there is a better chance to win it all if we start over with a young quarterback who will not cost us as much as Cousins is costing, and to build up an offense that will be able to take advantage of the league's offense-friendly rules these days.  Of course, this would cost us on the other side of the ball because we would need to invest draft picks, roster spots, and salary cap space in offense and the defense would not be able to stay at the level we have been accustomed to seeing them at.

I really don't know which way is the right way to go.  In this year's Super Bowl, we had a team in the 49ers who were built similarly to ourselves but were even better.  They got to the final game, but they didn't win it. 

Then you have the Chiefs as the model of a team that took a shot with a young quarterback and an offensive-minded head coach and some very good weapons at the skill positions on offense.  After a 50-year absence from the Super Bowl, that method got them to the top and they won it all.

Personally, I would like to see the Vikings go the route that the Chiefs went and blow it all up, and do what it takes to move up for Trevor Lawrence in next year's draft.  The problem is that we have a team that is still at least close to being in "win-now" mode, so that would be quite the garage sale.  The other problem is that I think if we were going to do that, it would have made more sense to move on from Mike Zimmer and probably even Rick Spielman and start fresh from the top down.

The Wilfs stuck with Mike Zimmer, so it looks like they want to maintain continuity and keep trying to get there with a defensive philosophy and with many of the veterans currently on the roster.  I can certainly see how they would want to do that.  We will just have to wait and see which process is/was the correct one.  . 

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1 hour ago, Uncle Buck said:

The whole question of whether the team should "rebuild" or just "retool" probably comes down to how much faith the Wilfs have in Mike Zimmer's vision of how to build a championship team.  As we all know, Zim wants a team based on elite defense and an offense that's good enough to score enough points to get the job done.  Some of us still think that's the way to get to the promised land. 

There is another camp that believes that we have run the course with our roster and that there is a better chance to win it all if we start over with a young quarterback who will not cost us as much as Cousins is costing, and to build up an offense that will be able to take advantage of the league's offense-friendly rules these days.  Of course, this would cost us on the other side of the ball because we would need to invest draft picks, roster spots, and salary cap space in offense and the defense would not be able to stay at the level we have been accustomed to seeing them at.

I really don't know which way is the right way to go.  In this year's Super Bowl, we had a team in the 49ers who were built similarly to ourselves but were even better.  They got to the final game, but they didn't win it. 

Then you have the Chiefs as the model of a team that took a shot with a young quarterback and an offensive-minded head coach and some very good weapons at the skill positions on offense.  After a 50-year absence from the Super Bowl, that method got them to the top and they won it all.

Personally, I would like to see the Vikings go the route that the Chiefs went and blow it all up, and do what it takes to move up for Trevor Lawrence in next year's draft.  The problem is that we have a team that is still at least close to being in "win-now" mode, so that would be quite the garage sale.  The other problem is that I think if we were going to do that, it would have made more sense to move on from Mike Zimmer and probably even Rick Spielman and start fresh from the top down.

The Wilfs stuck with Mike Zimmer, so it looks like they want to maintain continuity and keep trying to get there with a defensive philosophy and with many of the veterans currently on the roster.  I can certainly see how they would want to do that.  We will just have to wait and see which process is/was the correct one.  . 

I’m struggling with the correct process involving Kirk Cousins under center. Either blow it up and try to go all in finding the next all pro QB (knowing you won’t get a top 5 draft pick to do it) or build an elite team around a solid QB. The problem is, this team is cap strapped and many of the pieces that were so strong a couple of years ago are regressing or moving onto other teams. The defense isn’t what it was two years ago and will likely continue to regress with a rebuilt secondary and DL and the offense it what it is.... A run heavy offense that isn’t very efficient and has struggled making the WRs the focal point. 

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My preference would be to blow it up and try to go all in finding the next all-pro QB.  The problem with that is that we probably should have gotten rid of Mike Zimmer if we were going to do that.  You want an offensive mind who is good with young QB's if you are going to invest that much in the position.  Because the Wilfs kept Mike Zimmer, the thing to do is probably to try and add a couple of pieces and see how we do in 2020.  If we underachieve, then we blow it up next year when Kirk's contract expires.  

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On 2/20/2020 at 8:01 PM, SemperFeist said:

Kline has a very solid year. Well worth the contract. 

Kline is better than Elflein, but a crap ton of guards are better than Elflein, it is easy to look good compared to him.  But sure Kline does not have to be replaced technically but Elflein does.  And Udoh would be sweet if he was a LT, but he is a RT all the way honestly.  So having he and O'Neill is an issue because both play RT, not sure if O'Neill could make the switch to LT but maybe he could compared to Udoh.

 

I agree with those saying it is just re tooling, trying to get rid of older vets who do not deserve the pay they are getting.  Making some slight moves but not blowing the entire thing up because that is not needed.  

 

I still say Barr should be on the pass rush more often than he is, especially now if Griffen is gone.  They need to bring him a lot more, especially with Kendricks improving so much in coverage like he has.  It will be interesting, especially if Diggs is traded and we get a decent draft pick and or player for him.  

 

 

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I really don't think you need an all-pro QB to win it all.

Generally, I think staying healthy, getting hot at the right time, good coaching and finding some luck is all. you need to win.

We have most of these things (no luck haha) and that's why every season under Zimmer we have been very competitive.

No need to blow it up.

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6 minutes ago, SteelKing728 said:

I really don't think you need an all-pro QB to win it all.

Generally, I think staying healthy, getting hot at the right time, good coaching and finding some luck is all. you need to win.

We have most of these things (no luck haha) and that's why every season under Zimmer we have been very competitive.

No need to blow it up.

You don’t need an all pro QB to win it all, that is true. But you better not pay your QB at an all pro level if he isn’t an all pro. 

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1 hour ago, vikingsrule said:

You don’t need an all pro QB to win it all, that is true. But you better not pay your QB at an all pro level if he isn’t an all pro. 

True, and I have disliked Cousins from the get go.  But honestly no QB last year would have been successful behind that offensive line unless they were a great athlete, and even then it still could be an issue because pressure straight up the middle consistently can beat any QB athletic or not.  That is what Cousins got last year, especially during games the running game was not working.  He played good last year and was not the reason they failed in the end.  That poor pass protection and poor CB play is the biggest issue on the team.   

But yeah the cap situation is awful but they are also paying a lot of aging players too much money, and Cousins does not something to do with the cap situation as well of course.

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I think it all starts with the QB.  It certainly helps to have the right offense and coach(es) too but you've got to have a great QB to win a Super Bowl.  The saying is "defense wins championships" but I think if anything nowadays, you'd have to amend it to "elite defenses win championships...sometimes".  Elite anything can certainly win while average does little.  What if you had an elite run game and a great defense?  That got the 49ers to the big game.  Elite QB and a little help everywhere else got the Chiefs and Packers where they went.  Elite running game got the Titans to the conference championship game but couldn't get the Ravens there.  Elite coaching and QB got the Patriots to two hundred Super Bowls in the last 15 years.

It's more or less a crap shoot, gentlemen.  So what are we elite at right now?  Excuses?  Mediocrity?  Uncertainty?  Purpleness?  It isn't defense, offense or coaching imo.  We're good at certain things but so are 90% of the NFL.  I'm fairly uninspired by this team and it's direction right now, unfortunately.  With a new young coach, QB, etc., you can be optimistic, but we're kinda status quo good-not-great at this point with an old coach, an older QB who has almost certainly peaked, and a cap situation that pretty much assures us of few if any significant and positive roster changes.  

I'm going to go outside and hit some golf balls :ph34r:

 

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I'm not sure if any of the old maxims work in today's NFL. "Defense wins championships," "run to pass," and the like have gone by the wayside, or just aren't as certain as they used to be. 

I think the closest thing that's still applicable across the board is "games are won in the trenches."  You have to rush the passer, and you have to stop the pass rush to win in the NFL. If you can't stop the pass rush, your QB has to be able to move and extend plays. I think that's why Keenum looked so much better than Cousins (year one). This is our dilemma with Cousins: he can't extend plays like Wilson, Mahomes, Watson, etc., so he needs a stellar line in front of him to get the most out of him. However, he takes up too much cap space, so some other area of the team is bound to suffer. That brings the all-around talent level down and makes it hard to build a complete team that isn't going to have exploitable flaws. 

I'd be very excited to see what Cousins could do with a Top 5 line in front of him, but unless he's willing to take a steep discount, the Vikings won't be able to put that in front of him without putting a 1998 level defense on the field. 

 

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On 2/21/2020 at 8:24 PM, Uncle Buck said:

The whole question of whether the team should "rebuild" or just "retool" probably comes down to how much faith the Wilfs have in Mike Zimmer's vision of how to build a championship team.  As we all know, Zim wants a team based on elite defense and an offense that's good enough to score enough points to get the job done.  Some of us still think that's the way to get to the promised land. 

There is another camp that believes that we have run the course with our roster and that there is a better chance to win it all if we start over with a young quarterback who will not cost us as much as Cousins is costing, and to build up an offense that will be able to take advantage of the league's offense-friendly rules these days.  Of course, this would cost us on the other side of the ball because we would need to invest draft picks, roster spots, and salary cap space in offense and the defense would not be able to stay at the level we have been accustomed to seeing them at.

I really don't know which way is the right way to go.  In this year's Super Bowl, we had a team in the 49ers who were built similarly to ourselves but were even better.  They got to the final game, but they didn't win it. 

Then you have the Chiefs as the model of a team that took a shot with a young quarterback and an offensive-minded head coach and some very good weapons at the skill positions on offense.  After a 50-year absence from the Super Bowl, that method got them to the top and they won it all.

Personally, I would like to see the Vikings go the route that the Chiefs went and blow it all up, and do what it takes to move up for Trevor Lawrence in next year's draft.  The problem is that we have a team that is still at least close to being in "win-now" mode, so that would be quite the garage sale.  The other problem is that I think if we were going to do that, it would have made more sense to move on from Mike Zimmer and probably even Rick Spielman and start fresh from the top down.

The Wilfs stuck with Mike Zimmer, so it looks like they want to maintain continuity and keep trying to get there with a defensive philosophy and with many of the veterans currently on the roster.  I can certainly see how they would want to do that.  We will just have to wait and see which process is/was the correct one.  . 

That's a flawed comparison, considering the Chiefs never blew it all up.  In fact, the one year they did do real bad and get the #1 pick, it was the worst year ever to have the #1 pick, considering there were no QBs in that draft and the offensive linemen were even suspect (which is why they ended up with a very average Eric Fisher).   They had the makings of a constant playoff team even before they drafted Mahomes.  All they did was make one trade to get a young QB in the draft that they coveted, yet still had Alex Smith to get them to the playoffs.   That's the argument I've been making in considering drafting a QB this year (even though my demands have fallen from the 1st round to a 2nd or 3rd).  

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2 hours ago, swede700 said:

That's a flawed comparison, considering the Chiefs never blew it all up.  In fact, the one year they did do real bad and get the #1 pick, it was the worst year ever to have the #1 pick, considering there were no QBs in that draft and the offensive linemen were even suspect (which is why they ended up with a very average Eric Fisher).   They had the makings of a constant playoff team even before they drafted Mahomes.  All they did was make one trade to get a young QB in the draft that they coveted, yet still had Alex Smith to get them to the playoffs.   That's the argument I've been making in considering drafting a QB this year (even though my demands have fallen from the 1st round to a 2nd or 3rd).  

What you said makes sense, but the problem is, who will be available when we pick?  I admit that I haven't done a bit of research on any of the draft prospects at this point.

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8 minutes ago, Uncle Buck said:

What you said makes sense, but the problem is, who will be available when we pick?  I admit that I haven't done a bit of research on any of the draft prospects at this point.

No idea...I think there's a good possibility, if you're looking at a QB, that Jordan Love will still be available in the 1st...but, in some of the mocks I've been doing (haven't done a whole lot yet, but will probably do some more frequently after the combine), I've been looking more at Anthony Gordon in the 3rd round.  Early on in this process, I really was pushing to get a QB in the 1st or 2nd, but with the holes that seemed to be opening up in the secondary and D-Line, I've placed a little more emphasis on that than the QB, but I really, really, really do think they need to draft one early.  I don't think Browning has any chance of developing into even a competent backup, let alone a potential starter.  They need to have an alternate plan for Cousins, should he go down or takes a step back.  

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