Free Agency Discussion

[buno67]

3 hours ago, DizzyDean said:

Never has a statement in the history of FF demonstrated a complete lack of football knowledge, that includes the sticky shorts crush posts about Kizer for a few years ago.

that said, I digress, it’s a great idea that won’t happen.  Pretty sure there is a great chance that this comment will haunt the Browns for a very long time of the rumor that I hear is true, and it makes a ton of sense.  Winston to the Steelers.

won’t it be lovely watching them fix him and having him destroying the league for them for 12 years after Ben hangs up the cleats?

The Steelers and their coaching isn’t going to solve Winston’s turnover issues and was Dude has had issues holding onto the ball forever and making the right pass in forever. He would also have a far worse group of WRs in Pittsburg as well. Winston might rip you for 350/400yards but he will cancel that out with 2-4 turnovers. Mason Rudolph has potential and the Steelers coaches didn’t fix him or develop him. I’m sorry, you rarely ever see QB makes a huge turn around after 4-5 years in the league. Yeah it happens once and awhile but Winston isn’t one of those guys. Don’t trust him one bit. Hell and he would be playing in a tougher, defensive division than he was before

[buno67]

1 hour ago, bruceb said:

Well I am not but disagree.

Best bookend Ts will not compensate for less than fully competent play from the interior OL.

On the other hand, a solid interior OL corp will compensate for less than fully competent T play.

See Browns 2018 (Bitonio, Tretter and Zeitler on the inside and blocking dummies at T).

It is far easier to hide a guard than a tackle in general. 
 
you can cover up poor OL play with good schemes. You look at 2018, the entire OL was hot garbage under Hue and Haley. Under Haley we focused on slower developing pass plays. Freddie comes and sped everything up. Entire OL went 180 when Freddie and Zamp took over on ‘18. Go to 2019 and Freddie pretty much refused to use what worked in ‘18. He went to the slower developing pass plays to go for homeruns. Whenever the browns went quick, they looked efficient last year but they rarely did that. Hell the schemes this past season made Bit look pretty bad compared to previous seasons. 

[bruceb]

8 minutes ago, buno67 said:

the entire OL was hot garbage under Hue and Haley

No, it wasn't.

It had a core of Bitonio, Tretter and Zeitler.

[Kiwibrown]

17 minutes ago, bruceb said:

No, it wasn't.

It had a core of Bitonio, Tretter and Zeitler.

Wish we had zeitler.

[buno67]

10 minutes ago, bruceb said:

No, it wasn't.

It had a core of Bitonio, Tretter and Zeitler.

the OL was still hot garbage under Hue and Haley. Zeitler wasnt playing all that great until Freddie and Zamp took over. 

maybe hot garbage isnt the best term but they werent playing great either. What around week 5/6 the browns were graded around 12-15 in PFF OL rankings. After week 5, PFF had Bit at a 64, JCT at 74, and Zeitler at 67. They finished at Bit 76, JCT 74, and Zeitler 74, so it shows they were was a big change in their play. Gonna credit that to a better scheme. By week 9 they jumped to #7 but Zeitler was having one of his worst seasons run blocking at that point. By week12 they are up to #3 OLs for PFF and by week15 they were rated the 2nd best OL. Crediting that to the new schemes that helped baker get the ball out a lot quicker. 

Bit JCT and Zeitler did not dominate from start to finish in '18. Only consistent play that carried over from '18 to '19 was JCT

[buno67]

12 minutes ago, Kiwibrown said:

Wish we had zeitler.

he wasnt solving the issues at LT and RT or Zeitler wasnt going to help freddie figure how to actually be a HC or a true OC

[bruceb]

14 minutes ago, buno67 said:

the OL was still hot garbage under Hue and Haley. Zeitler wasnt playing all that great until Freddie and Zamp took over. 

maybe hot garbage isnt the best term but they werent playing great either. What around week 5/6 the browns were graded around 12-15 in PFF OL rankings. After week 5, PFF had Bit at a 64, JCT at 74, and Zeitler at 67. They finished at Bit 76, JCT 74, and Zeitler 74, so it shows they were was a big change in their play. Gonna credit that to a better scheme. By week 9 they jumped to #7 but Zeitler was having one of his worst seasons run blocking at that point. By week12 they are up to #3 OLs for PFF and by week15 they were rated the 2nd best OL. Crediting that to the new schemes that helped baker get the ball out a lot quicker. 

Bit JCT and Zeitler did not dominate from start to finish in '18. Only consistent play that carried over from '18 to '19 was JCT

So, let me get this straight.

The OL was graded around 12-15 in PFF OL rankings around week 5/6.

By week 9 they jumped to #7.

By week12 they are up to #3 OLs for PFF.

(A)nd by week15 they were rated the 2nd best OL

All without even decent Ts.

Does that sum it up?

[buno67]

13 minutes ago, bruceb said:

So, let me get this straight.

The OL was graded around 12-15 in PFF OL rankings around week 5/6.

By week 9 they jumped to #7.

By week12 they are up to #3 OLs for PFF.

(A)nd by week15 they were rated the 2nd best OL

All without even decent Ts.

Does that sum it up?

yeah shows you what the scheme did. 

If it was all about the talent? why was the left side so garbage this past season? You had the same starters as last year. Nothing changed between Robinson, Bit, and JCT but why did they play so poor? Robinson was awful, Bit didnt help him out. By Bit's standards, he had a bad season compared to years past. Tretter had a down year as well. Bit and Tretter didnt play that well compared to last year. 

now when Freddie actually utilized concepts that thrived in '18, the offense and OL looked just fine, like vs the Ravens in the first match up and early on vs Seattle. Plus other moments. When Freddie didnt, the offense looked lost and the OL was complete garbage.

Quit downplaying the importance of scheme. RGs do not make or break an offensive line

Edited March 24, 2020 by buno67

[bruceb]

9 minutes ago, buno67 said:

Quit downplaying the importance of scheme.

Never did.

Just pointed out that the core of 

39 minutes ago, buno67 said:

Bitonio, Tretter and Zeitler.

were enough to mask the inept play of the Ts.

Sure, the schemes had everything to do with it but the point was that Ts are not the be all and end all of successful OL performance if you are strong from the inside out.

Think your PFF stats prove that.

[Kiwibrown]

1 hour ago, buno67 said:

he wasnt solving the issues at LT and RT or Zeitler wasnt going to help freddie figure how to actually be a HC or a true OC

He is better than Vernon though.

[DizzyDean]

2 hours ago, buno67 said:

The Steelers and their coaching isn’t going to solve Winston’s turnover issues and was Dude has had issues holding onto the ball forever and making the right pass in forever. He would also have a far worse group of WRs in Pittsburg as well. Winston might rip you for 350/400yards but he will cancel that out with 2-4 turnovers. Mason Rudolph has potential and the Steelers coaches didn’t fix him or develop him. I’m sorry, you rarely ever see QB makes a huge turn around after 4-5 years in the league. Yeah it happens once and awhile but Winston isn’t one of those guys. Don’t trust him one bit. Hell and he would be playing in a tougher, defensive division than he was before

Obviously all you have to base anything on is a stat sheet.

sorry Charlie.  That does not hold water.

You can see why he turns the ball over.  It is not accuracy, it is 1000% decision making.  Making throws into coverage that he should not make because of over confidence in his ability.  Holding onto balls too long to try to make plays rather than throwing it away.

these ARE coachable issues.

Regarding Rudolph, he is a statue.  That is not a coachable issue.  That said, the garrett situation derailed his career before he could really be coached up at all.

[buno67]

28 minutes ago, bruceb said:

Never did.

Just pointed out that the core of 

were enough to mask the inept play of the Ts.

Sure, the schemes had everything to do with it but the point was that Ts are not the be all and end all of successful OL performance if you are strong from the inside out.

Think your PFF stats prove that.

Why wasn’t the browns offensive line any good in 2017? You had the trio of Bit JCT and Zeitler? That trio didn’t cover up for The tackles that year...

in 2018 the offense and the OL made a huge jump in play once schemes was totally changed and basically overhauled. 

I will say a good Guard can help a bad tackle. Also a good tackle can help a bad guard. It is easier to hide a bad guard when you have a good tackle than it is to hide a bad tackle with a good guard. Hell RG is the 2nd easiest position on offense, with LG being the easiest. 
 

sandwiching a RG between JCT and Conklin is going to have a better result than having a RT playing off of JCT and Zeitler 

If you have a bad RG and bad RT your screwed, like the browns were last year. 

 

works out now cause zeitler isn’t a good run blocker and prolly would have been a liability in Stef scheme. Also wouldn’t like spending $12m+ on a RG in a ZBS rushing attack 

[buno67]

9 hours ago, DizzyDean said:

Obviously all you have to base anything on is a stat sheet.

sorry Charlie.  That does not hold water.

You can see why he turns the ball over.  It is not accuracy, it is 1000% decision making.  Making throws into coverage that he should not make because of over confidence in his ability.  Holding onto balls too long to try to make plays rather than throwing it away.

these ARE coachable issues.

Regarding Rudolph, he is a statue.  That is not a coachable issue.  That said, the garrett situation derailed his career before he could really be coached up at all.

Stat sheet? Its Winstons' MO since college. Dude is a horrible decision-maker on the field and off the field. A lot of his bad decision making wasnt magnified because FSU had amazing talent on those squad. He was exposed his 2nd year  

Who has Fichtner developed as a QB? he was handed an already developed Big Ben. Canada has no record of developing QBs. Why are they suddenly going to be able to unlock Winston??? Yeah its pretty easy to help a dudes decision making and what not when they dont have a history like for example Baker Mayfield. Where Baker has a track record that can make 2019 look like an abnormality. Winston has had this issue for the past 7 years. He did it in college and has done it every year in the NFL. Were also not even talking about his god awful ability to not be able to hold onto the ball. Something that has plagued him the past 7 years as well. You think basic coaching could have solved that issues, but it hasn't It's not like Winston broke into the league surrounded by bad offensive minded coaches. Dirk Koetter was labeled as that next how offensive-minded HC. He did great things in ATL. Did great things his first year as OC with Tampa for the entire offense and had Winston flashing potential. Heck, they wanted to make sure Winston didnt have issues in seeing an offensive system leaving, that after that one season as Bucs OC, they made him the HC and Winston had him or 4 years and yet he never truly developed.

Now you look at his potential off the field issues with him not being a starter, team doesnt really need that from the back up QB

[sdrawkcab321]

please cut him 

 

[NateDawg]

Could not think of a more perfect storm then Washington Redskins management and an offensive tackle that is injury prone, older, and wants $20 million a year. GTFOH to both sides.