Jump to content

Post Combine Thoughts


Just Want A Title

Recommended Posts

Just now, Sllim Pickens said:

He also was all over the backfield pressuring Patterson and Lawrence.  He just didnt get home but its not always about getting the sack if you can disrupt.  

Exactly. He affected the game in a huge way. Just because it doesn't show up on a stat line doesn't mean it wasn't successful. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm in a difficult place with Chase Young, mainly because I'm fully aware that I'm nothing close to a capable talent evaluator.

I watched parts of only two Ohio State games late in the season, and my focus was locked onto Chase Young. In both of those games, I remember thinking that he didn't seem to give 'full effort'. It didn't seem, to me, that he had a non-stop motor. I recalled a few occasions where, once the play went away from him, he'd just slowly trot in that direction until the whistle was blown. I wasn't impressed.

Since that time, I've tried to read everything Chase Young related I can from every talent evaluator out there, and everything comes to the same conclusion: he's a special talent. Some believe that he'll be an All Pro out of the gate, that he'll be a top 10 pass-rusher each season for his entire career, and that he can transform a defense. Better than Myles Garrett. Better than the Bosa brothers. A truly dominant player.

I feel that there's nothing that would help this team more than putting an elite rusher opposite of Flowers. Acknowledging my own ability to scout and evaluate talent, I want that guy.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

So what if he's Myles Garrett and not Julius Peppers? Michigan game planned for him and invested a ton of resources in his direction (chips, double teams, keeping RB on his side, quick passing game). They still lost the game by a long shot. 

That's fine....I just don't remember seeing him do that.  I specifically remember the announcers stating what a non-factor he was in the game, but I totally concede I'm probably wrong about the Michigan game. But the argument is not "what if Young is really good?" which I'm not denying and believe he will be very good.  The argument is would I rather have two really good players vs 1 once in a generation player, which I'm not sure Young is.

Edited by LionArkie
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I'm in a difficult place with Chase Young, mainly because I'm fully aware that I'm nothing close to a capable talent evaluator.

I watched parts of only two Ohio State games late in the season, and my focus was locked onto Chase Young. In both of those games, I remember thinking that he didn't seem to give 'full effort'. It didn't seem, to me, that he had a non-stop motor. I recalled a few occasions where, once the play went away from him, he'd just slowly trot in that direction until the whistle was blown. I wasn't impressed.

Since that time, I've tried to read everything Chase Young related I can from every talent evaluator out there, and everything comes to the same conclusion: he's a special talent. Some believe that he'll be an All Pro out of the gate, that he'll be a top 10 pass-rusher each season for his entire career, and that he can transform a defense. Better than Myles Garrett. Better than the Bosa brothers. A truly dominant player.

I feel that there's nothing that would help this team more than putting an elite rusher opposite of Flowers. Acknowledging my own ability to scout and evaluate talent, I want that guy.

I think this is very fair.  I too am not a talent evaluator.  Nor am I one to watch every game every top 30 prospect college to get a better mock draft developed.  I read the scouting reports and that is as far as I go.  As you did, I too picked up on the vibe that Young relies on his talent vs being that work horse that I covet.  I think Okudah is going to be a work horse, and for me, as much as I preach about the DL being the first need, and still believe this to be the case, I see Okudah as the better prospect. I believe Okudah has that "it" factor. Now at 3, who would I pick if you take a trade down off the table, and it is between Young and Okudah, I'm taking Young all day, because DL is the most important position group on the defense in my mind.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

That's fine....I just don't remember seeing him do that.  I specifically remember the announcers stating what a non-factor he was in the game, but I totally concede I'm probably wrong about the Michigan game. But the argument is not "what if Young is really good?" which I'm not denying and believe he will be very good.  The argument is would I rather have two really good players vs 1 once in a generation player, which I'm not sure Young is.

When it comes to team building, as Lions fans, we have seen the best examples of how things go wrong: we've had generational players but the supporting cast has been abysmal; we've had decent teams with moderate talent but no superstars to push thing over the top. We've had Stafford throw for 5,000 yards, we've had Megatron as the best WR in the game, we've had the most dominant guy in Suh, we've had Barry Sanders as arguably the best RB ever. So I absolutely agree, a superstar player is not going to just do it. 

However, we can't be a team of average to slightly above average players and expect to have success. Having that X factor guy forces teams to game plan around him which opens up opportunities for other players. Having a quality player like Flowers to pair with Young is a world of difference for both guys. It would be drastically different than in years past and we've never been able to solve the edge rusher role or find a quality counterpart with one of our studs. We shouldn't over think it - draft Young as the best prospect in the draft at a key position which is also a position of need, then build other pieces around him and guys like Flowers. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

I think this is very fair.  I too am not a talent evaluator.  Nor am I one to watch every game every top 30 prospect college to get a better mock draft developed.  I read the scouting reports and that is as far as I go.  As you did, I too picked up on the vibe that Young relies on his talent vs being that work horse that I covet.  I think Okudah is going to be a work horse, and for me, as much as I preach about the DL being the first need, and still believe this to be the case, I see Okudah as the better prospect. I believe Okudah has that "it" factor. Now at 3, who would I pick if you take a trade down off the table, and it is between Young and Okudah, I'm taking Young all day, because DL is the most important position group on the defense in my mind.

Yeah, I think that all makes a lot of sense.

When I compare Young to Epenesa, my "insufficient talent evaluator" mind wants Epenesa: the relentless leader with a non-stop motor that'll be a staple on this defense for the next 10 or so years. He may never hit Young's sack totals, but he's the type of player and person that, to me, will be the face of a defense.

I then picture being able to maneuver around in this draft and leave the first round with both Okudah and Epenesa. Perhaps a trade down with MIA, grabbing Okudah at #5 and jumping back up with some of the other MIA pieces to make that happen.

Then again, the talent evaluators believe that Young is a generational talent.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

I think this is very fair.  I too am not a talent evaluator.  Nor am I one to watch every game every top 30 prospect college to get a better mock draft developed.  I read the scouting reports and that is as far as I go.  As you did, I too picked up on the vibe that Young relies on his talent vs being that work horse that I covet.  I think Okudah is going to be a work horse, and for me, as much as I preach about the DL being the first need, and still believe this to be the case, I see Okudah as the better prospect. I believe Okudah has that "it" factor. Now at 3, who would I pick if you take a trade down off the table, and it is between Young and Okudah, I'm taking Young all day, because DL is the most important position group on the defense in my mind.

I am far from an expert. I do spend a lot of time (probably far more than I should) on mock drafts, reading scouting reports, putting together a worksheet with combine measurements from 2011-2020 for all positions and watching some film - either it's the key guys or players that intrigue me from a Lions perspective. There is just so much more to it but that's enough for this guy. 

I did hear that Jon Gruden was ranting and raving about Okudah's love for football. He checks off all of the boxes and is really the guy that I want at #5 (I'm really hoping for a trade down). We just can't do that if Young is still sitting there. He's too talented and if he winds up as a HOF player, we are going to be the team that passed over Michael Jordan for Sam Bowie (on top of wasting the careers of Barry Sanders and Calvin Johnson, went 0-16, etc.). 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You cant watch one or two games from any player and think you have it.  Young absolutely dominated Wisconsin and pretty much single handily won that game for OSU.  He was game-planned against and still disrupted plays.  I watched the Michigan game and saw him reroute RBs into the heart of the D.  I saw him flush Patterson from the pocket and make bad throws under pressure.  I saw the same against Clemson.  Nick Bosa had a career high of 8.5 sacks in college, albeit he would have had more his junior year had he played the whole year, but he still didnt dominate every game as he was the focus of opponents game plan. Joey Bosa had 5 sacks his senior year in 12 games but had 16.5 the year before.  Thats what happens when you become the focus of attention in the game plan.  Young suffered the same fate this year and still put up crazy stats because of his athleticism and motor.  Anyone downplaying him is likely trying to talk themselves into being happy we didnt get a chance to get him because i am pretty sure we won't.  Just a month ago these same people were talking about trading 3 and a future 1st or our top 2 picks thi syear to jump up and get Young, what changed in that time? 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

You cant watch one or two games from any player and think you have it.  Young absolutely dominated Wisconsin and pretty much single handily won that game for OSU.  He was game-planned against and still disrupted plays.  I watched the Michigan game and saw him reroute RBs into the heart of the D.  I saw him flush Patterson from the pocket and make bad throws under pressure.  I saw the same against Clemson.  Nick Bosa had a career high of 8.5 sacks in college, albeit he would have had more his junior year had he played the whole year, but he still didnt dominate every game as he was the focus of opponents game plan. Joey Bosa had 5 sacks his senior year in 12 games but had 16.5 the year before.  Thats what happens when you become the focus of attention in the game plan.  Young suffered the same fate this year and still put up crazy stats because of his athleticism and motor.  Anyone downplaying him is likely trying to talk themselves into being happy we didnt get a chance to get him because i am pretty sure we won't.  Just a month ago these same people were talking about trading 3 and a future 1st or our top 2 picks this year to jump up and get Young, what changed in that time? 

I still wouldn't blame Quinn if he did actually go that route. It would really just depend on what we did in FA and what happens with Slay. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Yeah, I think that all makes a lot of sense.

When I compare Young to Epenesa, my "insufficient talent evaluator" mind wants Epenesa: the relentless leader with a non-stop motor that'll be a staple on this defense for the next 10 or so years. He may never hit Young's sack totals, but he's the type of player and person that, to me, will be the face of a defense.

I then picture being able to maneuver around in this draft and leave the first round with both Okudah and Epenesa. Perhaps a trade down with MIA, grabbing Okudah at #5 and jumping back up with some of the other MIA pieces to make that happen.

Then again, the talent evaluators believe that Young is a generational talent.

This would be an awesome scenario if this is how it actually plays out. The main issue is if Young is sitting there at #3. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

You cant watch one or two games from any player and think you have it.  Young absolutely dominated Wisconsin and pretty much single handily won that game for OSU.  He was game-planned against and still disrupted plays.  I watched the Michigan game and saw him reroute RBs into the heart of the D.  I saw him flush Patterson from the pocket and make bad throws under pressure.  I saw the same against Clemson.  Nick Bosa had a career high of 8.5 sacks in college, albeit he would have had more his junior year had he played the whole year, but he still didnt dominate every game as he was the focus of opponents game plan. Joey Bosa had 5 sacks his senior year in 12 games but had 16.5 the year before.  Thats what happens when you become the focus of attention in the game plan.  Young suffered the same fate this year and still put up crazy stats because of his athleticism and motor.  Anyone downplaying him is likely trying to talk themselves into being happy we didnt get a chance to get him because i am pretty sure we won't.  Just a month ago these same people were talking about trading 3 and a future 1st or our top 2 picks thi syear to jump up and get Young, what changed in that time? 

I think that's my point: I don't want to "have it". To really "have it", I'd have to watch every game of his college career, then identify and scout each offensive linemen he played against. After that, I'd have to do the same thing for every edge rusher in this draft, then do the same for the edge rushers of the past. All of that would take weeks, if not months, and would leave me with an opinion that one could just as easily disagree with. I've got enough going on in my life to not want any part of that, especially when I can read 20+ other opinions in 10 minutes.

Him being game planned against has nothing to do with him slowly jogging after a live play from behind. That stuff is pure motor, and isn't something that can really be disputed. I don't need to know the player he was playing against, or technique or scheme details, to know that such a thing is a concern, albeit slight. It'll probably be cleaned up in the NFL anyway. I still saw it.

As it relates to Young: I don't think anything really changed. He's a generational talent to most talent evaluators, and a player that I feel would transform this defense. My only reluctance comes down to this: is Young better than having both Okudah and Epenesa? I'm not entirely sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

You cant watch one or two games from any player and think you have it.  Young absolutely dominated Wisconsin and pretty much single handily won that game for OSU.  He was game-planned against and still disrupted plays.  I watched the Michigan game and saw him reroute RBs into the heart of the D.  I saw him flush Patterson from the pocket and make bad throws under pressure.  I saw the same against Clemson.  Nick Bosa had a career high of 8.5 sacks in college, albeit he would have had more his junior year had he played the whole year, but he still didnt dominate every game as he was the focus of opponents game plan. Joey Bosa had 5 sacks his senior year in 12 games but had 16.5 the year before.  Thats what happens when you become the focus of attention in the game plan.  Young suffered the same fate this year and still put up crazy stats because of his athleticism and motor.  Anyone downplaying him is likely trying to talk themselves into being happy we didnt get a chance to get him because i am pretty sure we won't.  Just a month ago these same people were talking about trading 3 and a future 1st or our top 2 picks thi syear to jump up and get Young, what changed in that time? 

I never stated this.  In fact I've always suggested trading down and also said take Young at 3 if he is there and there is no trade down available.  I said the same thing up above. I also agree there is no way for me to know from two games how good he is going to be.  Just as no one knows in 5 years how good he is going to be from watching every single game since his pee wee days.  I think Young is going to be a phenomenal pro.  I have yet to say otherwise.  The only thing in my mind that might have changed is that I think Okudah might be a better prospect than Young.  Two key points here "I think" and "might" are the words to focus on.  First, the "I think" -- I said I watched two games so my opinion isn't worth much.  Second "might" - he might be better, doesn't mean he will be better.  I just like guys who seem to love football and have that ultra competitive edge. It is a preference for me.  I like the grinders. I like the guys who make themselves better through hard work.  I think these are the types of guys who win championships.  So, I am coming back around to say again, I would rather have two very good prospects than 1 elite level prospect.  This is not a knock on Young, it is just my preference for building a winning team.

Edited by LionArkie
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I think that's my point: I don't want to "have it". To really "have it", I'd have to watch every game of his college career, then identify and scout each offensive linemen he played against. After that, I'd have to do the same thing for every edge rusher in this draft, then do the same for the edge rushers of the past. All of that would take weeks, if not months, and would leave me with an opinion that one could just as easily disagree with. I've got enough going on in my life to not want any part of that, especially when I can read 20+ other opinions in 10 minutes.

Him being game planned against has nothing to do with him slowly jogging after a live play from behind. That stuff is pure motor, and isn't something that can really be disputed. I don't need to know the player he was playing against, or technique or scheme details, to know that such a thing is a concern, albeit slight. It'll probably be cleaned up in the NFL anyway. I still saw it.

As it relates to Young: I don't think anything really changed. He's a generational talent to most talent evaluators, and a player that I feel would transform this defense. My only reluctance comes down to this: is Young better than having both Okudah and Epenesa? I'm not entirely sure.

If you are out of a play, D Lineman often jog behind the play if there is no chance to catch up to it.  I dont want him sprinting down the field for no reason so he has to come off for a few plays.  I don't think you will find a player in any level that has not done that at some point when they are completely out of a play. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Karnage84 said:

I am far from an expert. I do spend a lot of time (probably far more than I should) on mock drafts, reading scouting reports, putting together a worksheet with combine measurements from 2011-2020 for all positions and watching some film - either it's the key guys or players that intrigue me from a Lions perspective. There is just so much more to it but that's enough for this guy. 

I did hear that Jon Gruden was ranting and raving about Okudah's love for football. He checks off all of the boxes and is really the guy that I want at #5 (I'm really hoping for a trade down). We just can't do that if Young is still sitting there. He's too talented and if he winds up as a HOF player, we are going to be the team that passed over Michael Jordan for Sam Bowie (on top of wasting the careers of Barry Sanders and Calvin Johnson, went 0-16, etc.). 

This is what I want as well.  I really don't want to move down past 5.  A terrible scenario would be trading down to 5 with Young on the board at 3, then somehow missing out on both Okudah and Young. I think I'd feel sick.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, LionArkie said:

This is what I want as well.  I really don't want to move down past 5.  A terrible scenario would be trading down to 5 with Young on the board at 3, then somehow missing out on both Okudah and Young. I think I'd feel sick.

I would just quit if that happened. Not just the Lions. Football. All of it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...