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Lions will go after Byron Jones


BZski

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2 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

I mean.. I'll take Young, Okudah + 1st over Slay and Okudah all day, every day.

What I would really prefer to see is Jones, Slay and Okudah for 2020. Slay is still under contract. 

I wouldn't be opposed to this. Actually, I might like it a lot.  Then let Slay walk next year if you know Jones works out.  What happens though if Jones comes here and is completely average?  Do you let Slay go next year or do you resign him at that point?

Edited by LionArkie
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1 hour ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Just to clarify: would you rather have Slay at $16M for 5 years or Jones at $16M for 5 years and an additional late 1st round pick?

I'd rather have Slay at 15 for 3 years than Jones at 17 for 5 years and a 1st.  I am guessing we can't get a first for Slay, if we can, than it makes it slightly more intriguing.  I would much rather have Logan Ryan at 12 for 5 years and a 1ST, or Roby at 10 for 4 years and a 1st.  

I dont think CB is a huge issue for us at the moment, I think DL is a much bigger issue.  If we have to get rid of Slay, I am fine with Okudah, AO, Coleman, lower tier CB, mid round CB and then spend the extra money on Armstead or Clowney or something along those lines.  

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19 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

I wouldn't be opposed to this. Actually, I might like it a lot.  Then let Slay walk next year if you know Jones works out.  What happens though if Jones comes here and is completely average?  Do you let Slay go next year or do you resign him at that point?

Franchise tag him or re-sign. We also have Oruwariye in the mix and he could develop to be the guy too. The pundits talk about how this team is built back to front.. then your CB play is a huge part of what your defense does. Load it up. 

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1 hour ago, Karnage84 said:

Franchise tag him or re-sign. We also have Oruwariye in the mix and he could develop to be the guy too. The pundits talk about how this team is built back to front.. then your CB play is a huge part of what your defense does. Load it up. 

Forgot all about Oruwariye.

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2020: Darius Slay, Byron Jones, Jeff Okudah, Justin Coleman, Amani Oruwariye, Jamal Agnew, Mike Ford, Dee Virgin

2021: Byron Jones, Jeff Okudah, Justin Coleman, Amani Oruwariye

I'm seeing a guy like Bryce Hall dropping into the mid to late 3rd round. If we have some extra picks, I'd take a shot at him. There's a couple other guys that should be available later on as well. 

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21 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

2020: Darius Slay, Byron Jones, Jeff Okudah, Justin Coleman, Amani Oruwariye, Jamal Agnew, Mike Ford, Dee Virgin

2021: Byron Jones, Jeff Okudah, Justin Coleman, Amani Oruwariye

I'm seeing a guy like Bryce Hall dropping into the mid to late 3rd round. If we have some extra picks, I'd take a shot at him. There's a couple other guys that should be available later on as well. 

That would be a third of our cap spent on CBs.  I dont want 60Mil tied up in a position group unless you consider the D line as a position group.  

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36 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

2020: Darius Slay, Byron Jones, Jeff Okudah, Justin Coleman, Amani Oruwariye, Jamal Agnew, Mike Ford, Dee Virgin

2021: Byron Jones, Jeff Okudah, Justin Coleman, Amani Oruwariye

I'm seeing a guy like Bryce Hall dropping into the mid to late 3rd round. If we have some extra picks, I'd take a shot at him. There's a couple other guys that should be available later on as well. 

If we get Jones, Slay is gone boys. I actually think the writing is on the wall already and Slay will be traded regardless.

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34 minutes ago, BZski said:

If we get Jones, Slay is gone boys. I actually think the writing is on the wall already and Slay will be traded regardless.

You're probably right.  I wouldn't mind if they traded him this year, but I think if we are attempting a plug and play with Jones, we are going to be disappointed.

***edit**** Let me rephrase, there are other things that would upset me more.  If we could walk away with a late 1st to mid 2nd and invest on a high rd db and pick up a quality cb, it won't be so bad...but I dont necessarily think we will be better in 2020 for doing so.

 

49 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

That would be a third of our cap spent on CBs.  I dont want 60Mil tied up in a position group unless you consider the D line as a position group.  

I wouldn't mind it for one year, but long term I definitely agree.

Edited by LionArkie
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46 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

That would be a third of our cap spent on CBs.  I dont want 60Mil tied up in a position group unless you consider the D line as a position group.  

The DL is a position group and the defense is built back to front. If they aren't looking for a high level pass-rusher (and they aren't paying to get one) then I would want to invest my resources into the group that stirs the drink. 

If the Lions structure the contracts like they have been doing, for one season you're looking at:

- Slay $13M

- Jones - $7M (Bigger hit in 2021)

- Coleman - $9M

- Okudah - $6M

Total =$35M + Lower tier guys 

That's nowhere close to $60M. That would be about 22% of the cap for the CB's. Walker and Harris are accounting for less than $2M combined. 

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10 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

The DL is a position group and the defense is built back to front. If they aren't looking for a high level pass-rusher (and they aren't paying to get one) then I would want to invest my resources into the group that stirs the drink. 

If the Lions structure the contracts like they have been doing, for one season you're looking at:

- Slay $13M

- Jones - $7M (Bigger hit in 2021)

- Coleman - $9M

- Okudah - $6M

Total =$35M + Lower tier guys 

That's nowhere close to $60M. That would be about 22% of the cap for the CB's. Walker and Harris are accounting for less than $2M combined. 

Slay won't play at his 13 M, at least in Detroit.  And I don't care what D you run, it needs to start front to back.  I have seen you say this in other threads but there is not a CB on the planet that can consistently cover for 5-7 seconds when there is no pass rush.  Give me a D line that makes it hard on QBs, much more impactful to a game than CBs.  Richard Sherman looked average last year, had a good year with a great D line, and looked average in the Super Bowl when SF didn't get pressure. 

I think adding Jones and keeping Slay and drafting Okudah is a really bad way to try and build a team.  Investing way too many resources (draft and financial) for a group that isnt overly weak as is. 

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1 minute ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Slay won't play at his 13 M, at least in Detroit.  And I don't care what D you run, it needs to start front to back.  I have seen you say this in other threads but there is not a CB on the planet that can consistently cover for 5-7 seconds when there is no pass rush.  Give me a D line that makes it hard on QBs, much more impactful to a game than CBs.  Richard Sherman looked average last year, had a good year with a great D line, and looked average in the Super Bowl when SF didn't get pressure. 

I think adding Jones and keeping Slay and drafting Okudah is a really bad way to try and build a team.  Investing way too many resources (draft and financial) for a group that isnt overly weak as is. 

It's not my philosophy, it's the Patricia/Patriots model. It is what we have, like it or not. It's not to say that you don't invest in the front end of things but they are rushing 3-4 and covering with 7-8. If we lose Slay, then it's not a very good group at all coupled with a mediocre LB group and an even worse DL group. Slay is under contract. He's nearing age 30 which is the perceived drop off. If he wants to get paid, he's going to join a defense that has a guy like Okudah opposite of him to make him look better and get that next contract with another team. 

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-pff-data-study-coverage-vs-pass-rush

Quote

As I said on Kevin Cole’s podcast a few weeks back: during the PFF era, teams with elite coverage (67th percentile or better) and a poor pass rush (33rd percentile or worse) win, on average, about a game and a half more than teams with the reverse construction. Thus, is the correct conclusion that coverage > pass rush?

 

Quote

Since 2008, the only two expensive, big-name free agents the Patriots have signed have been cornerbacks (Darrelle Revis and Gilmore), but they’ve also stocked up on unheralded players to play roles (e.g., Patrick Chung and Duron Harmon) while famously manufacturing pass rush with undervalued players. Additionally, when faced with two very tough pass rushes in the AFC playoffs in the Chargers and the Chiefs, Tom Brady’s time to throw was 2.18 seconds – by far the fastest in the NFL. The Chiefs were terrific at generating quick pressure in 2018, ranking fourth in pressure rate in less than 2.5 seconds, while the Patriots struggled in that metric, ranking 25th. However, the success of each pass defense is, of course, completely reversed: the Patriots ranked fifth against the pass (using EPA per pass play) while the Chiefs were 21st and felt the brunt of this incongruence on their home field in January.

 

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11 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

It's not my philosophy, it's the Patricia/Patriots model. It is what we have, like it or not. It's not to say that you don't invest in the front end of things but they are rushing 3-4 and covering with 7-8. If we lose Slay, then it's not a very good group at all coupled with a mediocre LB group and an even worse DL group. Slay is under contract. He's nearing age 30 which is the perceived drop off. If he wants to get paid, he's going to join a defense that has a guy like Okudah opposite of him to make him look better and get that next contract with another team. 

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-pff-data-study-coverage-vs-pass-rush

 

 

That pff crap hardly matters.

And if our philosophy is somehow more reliant on coverage itself in terms of dropping 7 and 8, I would think the need for impact players on D would be well spent up front.

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4 minutes ago, detroitroar said:

That pff crap hardly matters.

And if our philosophy is somehow more reliant on coverage itself in terms of dropping 7 and 8, I would think the need for impact players on D would be well spent up front.

Agreed, the Patriot way works with Belichick, hasn't worked anywhere else.  Spend some money on LBs and pass rushers, spread the wealth as a D needs to not have glaring holes to succeed.  A D with all average positions will be better than one that is elite in one area and poor in another.  

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1 minute ago, detroitroar said:

That pff crap hardly matters.

And if our philosophy is somehow more reliant on coverage itself in terms of dropping 7 and 8, I would think the need for impact players on D would be well spent up front.

It's not just PFF. That's our defensive scheme's philosophy, based on the win percentage. It's obviously not black and white, there is nuance to all of it. Despite how things fared last year, we could survive an injury to a key player on our defensive line (assuming that our FA's are replaced with guys of equal skill) as opposed to losing guys in the secondary. 

1 minute ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Agreed, the Patriot way works with Belichick, hasn't worked anywhere else.  Spend some money on LBs and pass rushers, spread the wealth as a D needs to not have glaring holes to succeed.  A D with all average positions will be better than one that is elite in one area and poor in another.  

This suggests that this defense shouldn't have an identity. Most teams pick a philosophy, add players to build around that philosophy and then fill in the holes in the other spots that are of less importance. No one is suggesting that they aren't going to add players on the defensive line in the draft and/or free agency. 

If they add guys like DJ Reader, Byron Jones, Jeff Okudah, a couple DL and Malik Harrison, it should be a far improved defense. 

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