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Should/ Shouldn't


Bishop86

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I don't see the Conklin/ Wagner thing going down. Is it an upgrade?  No doubt. But we already have 4 major holes to fill, so creating a 5th and then paying through the nose leaves us with little space for the rest of the roster. $46 mil doesn't get you very far when you have 4 open spots on your roster.

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6 minutes ago, Bishop86 said:

I don't see the Conklin/ Wagner thing going down. Is it an upgrade?  No doubt. But we already have 4 major holes to fill, so creating a 5th and then paying through the nose leaves us with little space for the rest of the roster. $46 mil doesn't get you very far when you have 4 open spots on your roster.

I don't agree.

Releasing Wagner will actually create cap space (approx. $6M), and some would argue, based on his declining play, RT is already a hole on the roster. By releasing Wagner and using that cap relief to bring Conklin back to MI, we'd be significantly upgrading the position for a lesser cost than that upgrade should cost. (Compared to keeping Wagner.)

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1 minute ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I don't agree.

Releasing Wagner will actually create cap space (approx. $6M), and some would argue, based on his declining play, RT is already a hole on the roster. By releasing Wagner and using that cap relief to bring Conklin back to MI, we'd be significantly upgrading the position for a lesser cost than that upgrade should cost. (Compared to keeping Wagner.)

 

RT is far from a hole on the roster. We can all agree, Wagner didn't have a fantastic year, but he's been traditionally solid. Conklin's getting $15+ mil per year. How far do you think $25 mil will get you when you need a CB2, DT, SS, & OG to replace? Are you confident in Will Harris, Josh Garnett, and Amani Oruwariye? 

 

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Just now, Bishop86 said:

 

RT is far from a hole on the roster. We can all agree, Wagner didn't have a fantastic year, but he's been traditionally solid. Conklin's getting $15+ mil per year. How far do you think $25 mil will get you when you need a CB2, DT, SS, & OG to replace? Are you confident in Will Harris, Josh Garnett, and Amani Oruwariye? 

 

Those are good numbers to start with.

We start with $46M. We release Wagner (+$6M), then sign Conklin for $16M per (-$16M). Our current cap would then be $36M.

I believe that, with the value of our draft picks and $36M in available cap, we'd be able to comfortably add quality players at CB, DT, SS and OG to this roster.

 

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1 minute ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Those are good numbers to start with.

We start with $46M. We release Wagner (+$6M), then sign Conklin for $16M per (-$16M). Our current cap would then be $36M.

I believe that, with the value of our draft picks and $36M in available cap, we'd be able to comfortably add quality players at CB, DT, SS and OG to this roster.

 

The Rookie class is expected to be $12 mil. By your math, now you are looking at $24 mil. I am a firm believer that we should add talent through the draft, not fill holes. I sure as hell don't want an OG in the 2nd Rd because we didn't resign Glasgow. Again, I'd love Conklin, but upgrading RT seems like a luxury to me.   

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1 minute ago, Bishop86 said:

The Rookie class is expected to be $12 mil. By your math, now you are looking at $24 mil. I am a firm believer that we should add talent through the draft, not fill holes. I sure as hell don't want an OG in the 2nd Rd because we didn't resign Glasgow. Again, I'd love Conklin, but upgrading RT seems like a luxury to me.   

I can definitely see both sides of this, but I think Glasgow is going to be overpaid.  I'm not sure if I want this either.  I want Glasgow, don't get me wrong, but I don't know what's worse, overpaying for a G, or spending a ton on a RT.  But I have no solutions so carry on.

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4 minutes ago, Bishop86 said:

The Rookie class is expected to be $12 mil. By your math, now you are looking at $24 mil. I am a firm believer that we should add talent through the draft, not fill holes. I sure as hell don't want an OG in the 2nd Rd because we didn't resign Glasgow. Again, I'd love Conklin, but upgrading RT seems like a luxury to me.   

Do you feel that, with $24M in available cap and our current draft value, we'd be able to add a CB, DT, SS and OG this offseason? To me, that seems extremely comfortable.

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17 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

I can definitely see both sides of this, but I think Glasgow is going to be overpaid.  I'm not sure if I want this either.  I want Glasgow, don't get me wrong, but I don't know what's worse, overpaying for a G, or spending a ton on a RT.  But I have no solutions so carry on.

Other teams have a ton of cap space, and it will be flaunted before the new CBA. Everyone keeps throwing the term "overpaid" out like we have much leverage.  We are the Lions, and we are middle of the pack in terms of cap space. We will have to overpay for whoever we sign on the open market worth a damn, and that might limit our ability to cover all bases. You can't base what a OG got in 2017 with what top 5 OG will get in 2020... it keeps rising. If that's the case, you'll be shocked at the contracts handed out this year. 

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48 minutes ago, Bishop86 said:

 

RT is far from a hole on the roster. We can all agree, Wagner didn't have a fantastic year, but he's been traditionally solid. Conklin's getting $15+ mil per year. How far do you think $25 mil will get you when you need a CB2, DT, SS, & OG to replace? Are you confident in Will Harris, Josh Garnett, and Amani Oruwariye? 

 

I dont think Wagner has been solid at all but maybe pff says otherwise.

I'd definitely call RT more of a need than CB or Safety but that's just me.

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25 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Do you feel that, with $24M in available cap and our current draft value, we'd be able to add a CB, DT, SS and OG this offseason? To me, that seems extremely comfortable.

$24 mil doesn't get you far when Top 10 OG money is $10 mil, Top 15 DT money is $8 mil, top 10 SS money is $6, that's not even figuring in solid CB2 money.... and some of these figures are 2 -3 years old. Again, I don't think using draft value should be used to fill holes, take best player available. Similarly to how Quinn chose Hockenson after signing J. James (another overpay because we are Detroit).  

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8 minutes ago, detroitroar said:

I dont think Wagner has been solid at all but maybe pff says otherwise.

I'd definitely call RT more of a need than CB or Safety but that's just me.

PFF has Wagner as above average, traditionally. Much of the roster took a step back due to injuries and scheme last year.... many players had historically low grades. While RT can certainly be upgraded, due to our circumstances, I'd focus our resources on the roster holes and let the draft play itself out. Unless you feel Will Harris and Amani Oruwariye are ready, than I'd rather sign players to start in front of them while we let them continue developing. Is there a RT upgrade to Wagner on the market, at less than his current salary? 

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18 minutes ago, Bishop86 said:

$24 mil doesn't get you far when Top 10 OG money is $10 mil, Top 15 DT money is $8 mil, top 10 SS money is $6, that's not even figuring in solid CB2 money.... and some of these figures are 2 -3 years old. Again, I don't think using draft value should be used to fill holes, take best player available. Similarly to how Quinn chose Hockenson after signing J. James (another overpay because we are Detroit).  

It sounds like, based on those numbers, we could afford to sign two "top" positional players in free agency. You listed four needs. And I disagree about the use of draft value: we can absolutely look at where we stand in the draft, the players that are likely to be available and make free agency decisions based on that information.

For example: we have a tentative deal worked out with MIA to move down from #3 to #5. If Quinn and Patricia are sold on Okudah, we could absolutely sign a DT and S in free agency, then take Okudah at #5, filling three of those four holes. I also believe that you can find a quality starting OG in the late 1st/early 2nd round.

I think teams would be foolish to approach the draft and free agency as being completely unrelated to each other. 

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15 minutes ago, Bishop86 said:

PFF has Wagner as above average, traditionally. Much of the roster took a step back due to injuries and scheme last year.... many players had historically low grades. While RT can certainly be upgraded, due to our circumstances, I'd focus our resources on the roster holes and let the draft play itself out. Unless you feel Will Harris and Amani Oruwariye are ready, than I'd rather sign players to start in front of them while we let them continue developing. Is there a RT upgrade to Wagner on the market, at less than his current salary? 

I have a lot of faith in our secondary as a whole.

I'm not sure who would be as good of a value but I dont see Wagner as much of a value right now. Hes been banged up since signing and was above average at best when healthy. Availability is a big factor especially on oline when you have QB who's been essentially getting banged around his entire career. 

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1 minute ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

For example: we have a tentative deal worked out with MIA to move down from #3 to #5. If Quinn and Patricia are sold on Okudah, we could absolutely sign a DT and S in free agency, then take Okudah at #5, filling three of those four holes. I also believe that you can find a quality starting OG in the late 1st/early 2nd round.

I think teams would be foolish to approach the draft and free agency as being completely unrelated to each other. 

That's assuming the Giants don't take Okudah, and we are in love with Derrick Brown or Isaiah Simmons. I am not high on Derrick Brown at all, and I'd rather have a master of trade than a jack of a few in regards to Simmons.  I think it's foolish to rely on the draft to fill roster holes, because the draft is like a box of chocolates.

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18 minutes ago, Bishop86 said:

PFF has Wagner as above average, traditionally. Much of the roster took a step back due to injuries and scheme last year.... many players had historically low grades. While RT can certainly be upgraded, due to our circumstances, I'd focus our resources on the roster holes and let the draft play itself out. Unless you feel Will Harris and Amani Oruwariye are ready, than I'd rather sign players to start in front of them while we let them continue developing. Is there a RT upgrade to Wagner on the market, at less than his current salary? 

PFF had him graded as a 59 last year.  Thats not above average. Taylor Decker was slightly above average last year graded at a 75.  Wagner has been bad, and got worse each year here.  He needs to go along with his cap hit.  I also agree that we should not fill holes in the draft but we will fill DT/CB/SS/DE at pick 3 (or 5/6 depending on a trade back).  We don't need to sign top 10 players at each position, we need solid players to fill the holes.  Average is a good way to fill the holes we have.  If we don't sign a RT, i would put OT as a top 3 round need in the draft.  I would rather draft a OG and sign a sure thing at RT than sign Glasgow and draft a RT that has higher bust potential IMO. 

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