Sllim Pickens Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, Bishop86 said: That's assuming the Giants don't take Okudah, and we are in love with Derrick Brown or Isaiah Simmons. I am not high on Derrick Brown at all, and I'd rather have a master of trade than a jack of a few in regards to Simmons. I think it's foolish to rely on the draft to fill roster holes, because the draft is like a box of chocolates. Still in this scenario, we fill 3/4 positions with those funds. Switch who is drafted and who is signed, it still fills the holes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionArkie Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 10 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said: PFF had him graded as a 59 last year. Thats not above average. Taylor Decker was slightly above average last year graded at a 75. Wagner has been bad, and got worse each year here. He needs to go along with his cap hit. I also agree that we should not fill holes in the draft but we will fill DT/CB/SS/DE at pick 3 (or 5/6 depending on a trade back). We don't need to sign top 10 players at each position, we need solid players to fill the holes. Average is a good way to fill the holes we have. If we don't sign a RT, i would put OT as a top 3 round need in the draft. I would rather draft a OG and sign a sure thing at RT than sign Glasgow and draft a RT that has higher bust potential IMO. If I wait long enough, someone says what I want to say, but way more eloquently. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop86 Posted March 10, 2020 Author Share Posted March 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said: PFF had him graded as a 59 last year. Thats not above average. Taylor Decker was slightly above average last year graded at a 75. Wagner has been bad, and got worse each year here. He needs to go along with his cap hit. I also agree that we should not fill holes in the draft but we will fill DT/CB/SS/DE at pick 3 (or 5/6 depending on a trade back). We don't need to sign top 10 players at each position, we need solid players to fill the holes. Average is a good way to fill the holes we have. If we don't sign a RT, i would put OT as a top 3 round need in the draft. I would rather draft a OG and sign a sure thing at RT than sign Glasgow and draft a RT that has higher bust potential IMO. I said "above average, traditionally." And while I'm completely fine with upgrading from him, we have other obvious holes to fill. Not sure they want to focus any energy on upgrading/ plugging another hole. Filling a hole at less than replacement value doesn't make a lick of sense to the front office (in regards to your draft will fill 1-2 holes). It's in the same vein as the Darius Slay situation.... in a win now mode, why create more uncertainty? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop86 Posted March 10, 2020 Author Share Posted March 10, 2020 8 minutes ago, LionArkie said: If I wait long enough, someone says what I want to say, but way more eloquently. Starting caliber players usually demand top 10-15 pay scales. Don't be surprised when Shelby Harris and Michael Pierce become $7-$10 mil a year players, and Jack Conklin gets $17 +. Did you think a QB was going to get $35-$40 mil per? Again, not paying up for talent and hoping to land their replacement in the draft leaves you exposed. Draft Georgia's mountainous OG in the 3rd because we need an OG to compete with Aboushi / Wiggins/ Garnett/ Dahl, when there was a prime WR prospect available (not only for now but certainly next year) is what makes fans tear their hair out 2021. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionArkie Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 8 minutes ago, Bishop86 said: Starting caliber players usually demand top 10-15 pay scales. Don't be surprised when Shelby Harris and Michael Pierce become $7-$10 mil a year players, and Jack Conklin gets $17 +. Did you think a QB was going to get $35-$40 mil per? Again, not paying up for talent and hoping to land their replacement in the draft leaves you exposed. Draft Georgia's mountainous OG in the 3rd because we need an OG to compete with Aboushi / Wiggins/ Garnett/ Dahl, when there was a prime WR prospect available (not only for now but certainly next year) is what makes fans tear their hair out 2021. I think you are really trying to project on me what I want or think. I really don't understand what my thoughts on a QB salary has to do with not wanting to pay top end price for Glasgow. I fully understand wages go up for all careers including football. I'm not saying Glasgow is not worth a 150 million a year. I'm not saying I don't want Glasgow. I'm not saying signing Conklin releasing Glasgow is a better move than resigning Glasgow and keeping Wagner. From a performance issue, I believe Glasgow and Conklin > Glasgow and Wagner. We have 40 million to spend and we can't replace every hole with top performers in FA. Like it or not, we are going to have to use the draft to fill holes with talent as we and every other team does every single year. What I am saying/thinking is we need to pick and choose. Would I rather spend the money on Conklin vs Glasgow? No, I wouldn't. Do I want to spend top end money on Glasgow and do I think he is worth top end money? No I don't to both. Do I want to get the best RT in FA in Conklin? Not really, although I wouldn't be upset with getting him, I think the cost to performance ratio would be better with a guy like Bulaga. Would I be upset if we resigned Glasgow and kept Wagner? Maybe a little, but would understand for the very points you have made. I believe a guard is a little easier to come by in the draft and in a later round then a RT. So if my choices are to pick up a quality RT in the draft and sign a guard, or draft a quality G and sign a RT I like my odds a little better with the latter. If any of us thinks every single hole is going to be resolved in both FA and the draft this year, then 2020 is going to be miserable. Look back at when this all started, I flat out said "I see both sides of this argument". So, let's please now consider if I think a starting WR is worth 85k a year or not in 2020 as it pertains to Glasgow and the right side of the Lions offensive line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop86 Posted March 10, 2020 Author Share Posted March 10, 2020 Do you think reaching for Jaylon Johnson from Utah, and Jeff Gladney at #35 is justifiable because we signed DJ Reader $15 mil per; and only have Oruwariye as our #2...(I don't care what his draft profile projected, he was a 5th RD pick for a reason) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionArkie Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 I don't think you reach at all and why can't I take Okudah at 3? We have a ton of needs and they will change according to FA. I'm going to have guys at specific ranges to draft and I'm not going to fit square pegs in round holes. If I have a need at CB, and their is not one there within the range I want, then I need to focus on pass rush to assist the DB. If there is nothing on the DL to do this, then I will look at LB. If this isn't there, then I will look at WR because that's what TL wants (giggles). Anyways, you get the point. I will come back around and say you are not going to get everything you want and not every hole will be filled this year, or next, or the one after that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionArkie Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 (edited) Personally, in terms of the Lions in 2020, I would be happy if we completely revamped the front 7 on defense and did nothing else. For me, this would be a starting point in FA. After all, we have 15 holes on D not including losing Slay, then it will be 19. Edited March 10, 2020 by LionArkie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop86 Posted March 10, 2020 Author Share Posted March 10, 2020 I am all for Okudah at #3... I think that is the surest bet regarding the Lions in the draft. My original point was $24 mil doesn't get you far when you are trying to fill 4 holes and not rely on the draft... because the draft is a crap shoot. The same people pinning their hopes on replacing Slay with Jones and Glasgow with Garnett are hoping to draft a NT Top 10... that to me is terrible value all around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sllim Pickens Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 Bottom line, our O line wasnt good last year, and a big part of that was Wagners play. Cant run to his side, struggled to protect. Give me a better RT which helps in the run, pass, and time of possession factors that help the D. We fell apart in fourth quarters last year because our D was exhausted. If we truly want to run the ball, adding someone like Conklin would do wonders. Conklin graded out higher than Glasgow, he plays a more important and harder to fill position, and both would fill a hole on the team. Give me the better player at the more important position any day of the week. Also, Lane johnson is the highest paid RT and he graded out at an 88 on PFF. Conklin was a 78. I know that contracts escalate year over year but I'd be willing to bet that Conklin ends up at 13-14 a year, making him the third highest paid RT. But as LionsArkie said, we cant fill all holes, and we cant fill them all with stars especially. A couple years ago we signed Kennard and Jones at LB. They havent been world beaters but thats the type of signing we need at DT, CB, OG. Conklin seems like a real possibility to bring here. Sign the top level talent you can and fill the rest in with solid players. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sllim Pickens Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, Bishop86 said: I am all for Okudah at #3... I think that is the surest bet regarding the Lions in the draft. My original point was $24 mil doesn't get you far when you are trying to fill 4 holes and not rely on the draft... because the draft is a crap shoot. The same people pinning their hopes on replacing Slay with Jones and Glasgow with Garnett are hoping to draft a NT Top 10... that to me is terrible value all around I dont think anyone wants to fill all those holes and draft a NT in the top 10, but if they did, it would fill one of those holes. Leaving 24 Mil to spend 8/9 on Roby, 7-8 on Jamie Collins, and 8-9 on Reader or Hargrave. Add in Okudah or Simmons, and boom, you have a very good D. Replace Roby with an 8-9 M guard and still in a really good spot to draft BPA. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 2 hours ago, Bishop86 said: That's assuming the Giants don't take Okudah, and we are in love with Derrick Brown or Isaiah Simmons. I am not high on Derrick Brown at all, and I'd rather have a master of trade than a jack of a few in regards to Simmons. I think it's foolish to rely on the draft to fill roster holes, because the draft is like a box of chocolates. Honestly, that would be even better. With Simmons, Brown, Wirfs, Becton and Herbert available, I'd consider trading down again. There are plenty of really good CBs in this draft, and the added compensation would be great for this team. When you have a significant amount of draft value, you can absolutely go into the draft with an idea where you'd like to fill a hole. My point is that there are plenty of options, and having a living body at RT doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't need to be upgraded. It definitely does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnage84 Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 15 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said: Honestly, that would be even better. With Simmons, Brown, Wirfs, Becton and Herbert available, I'd consider trading down again. There are plenty of really good CBs in this draft, and the added compensation would be great for this team. When you have a significant amount of draft value, you can absolutely go into the draft with an idea where you'd like to fill a hole. My point is that there are plenty of options, and having a living body at RT doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't need to be upgraded. It definitely does. There are good CB's but only so many that actually fit what the Lions look for and need in the defense. When building a roster you do have to be careful about how much youth you're putting at key positions vs veteran players who are experienced but less talented. If we have 12 draft picks we aren't expecting all 12 to make the team and be impact players. It would be a really good draft if we could get 4-5 as starters/key back ups. In a regular 7 pick draft, it'd be great to get 3-4 guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionArkie Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Sllim Pickens said: Bottom line, our O line wasnt good last year, and a big part of that was Wagners play. Cant run to his side, struggled to protect. Give me a better RT which helps in the run, pass, and time of possession factors that help the D. We fell apart in fourth quarters last year because our D was exhausted. If we truly want to run the ball, adding someone like Conklin would do wonders. Conklin graded out higher than Glasgow, he plays a more important and harder to fill position, and both would fill a hole on the team. Give me the better player at the more important position any day of the week. Also, Lane johnson is the highest paid RT and he graded out at an 88 on PFF. Conklin was a 78. I know that contracts escalate year over year but I'd be willing to bet that Conklin ends up at 13-14 a year, making him the third highest paid RT. But as LionsArkie said, we cant fill all holes, and we cant fill them all with stars especially. A couple years ago we signed Kennard and Jones at LB. They havent been world beaters but thats the type of signing we need at DT, CB, OG. Conklin seems like a real possibility to bring here. Sign the top level talent you can and fill the rest in with solid players. Great point. I still wouldn't be upset though if we drafted a LT in the first two rounds (only round 1 if we had a trade down) and moved Decker to the right side. I think Decker would be fantastic on the right side. If we take Conklin this year, we are looking at Decker's contract next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionArkie Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, Karnage84 said: There are good CB's but only so many that actually fit what the Lions look for and need in the defense. When building a roster you do have to be careful about how much youth you're putting at key positions vs veteran players who are experienced but less talented. If we have 12 draft picks we aren't expecting all 12 to make the team and be impact players. It would be a really good draft if we could get 4-5 as starters/key back ups. In a regular 7 pick draft, it'd be great to get 3-4 guys. This is why I think it is better to keep Slay around this year, especially if we draft Okudah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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