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Mind Character

(Polls) Rank/Choose the Top Tackles & Joe Thomas Says Wirfs is a Guard

Rank the Tackles  

40 members have voted

  1. 1. Who's Your 2020 OT1 NFL Draft Prospect?

    • Mekhi Becton, OT Louisville
    • Andrew Thomas, OT Georgia
    • Jedrick Wills Jr., OT Alabama
    • Tristan Wirfs, OT/OG Iowa
    • Josh Jones, OT Houston
      0
    • Austin Jackson, OT USC
      0
  2. 2. Is there a Clear Best, Head and Shoulders Above the Rest Tackle Prospect in the Draft?

  3. 3. How Many Tackles Go Off the Board BEFORE the Browns Select?

    • 1
    • 2
    • 3
    • 4
    • 0 - None; We'll be Selecting the 1st Tackle Taken in the NFL Draft


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Posted (edited)

Brett Kollman knows what's up..

On Wirfs Vs. Wills: " With Wills in particular in my opinion being clearly the better player of the two....Hall of Fame talent, It's not a hard decision.. take Jedrick Wills."

I've been trying to tell everyone. Wirfs is a Guard not a Tackle and Wills is clearly the best, head and shoulders above the rest. If we take Wirfs and put him at Tackle it will be a huge mistake. Trade the 3rd rounder to get Wills. He has it all and will be an All-Pro year 2 at the Latest. If we must, I guess gamble on Becton, but F-that instead trade down if Wills if off the board. It's Wills or Bust aka if not Wills trade down and get Robert Hunt.

 

 

@BrownsDog23 just saw that you already posted it. Good stuff.

Edited by Mind Character

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This is where I have to disagree.....I have watched Wills and Wirfs for two years each respectively, and I don't think the gap is that far, and I like Wirrfs more based off what I've seen.

This reminds me of watching Iowa a couple of years ago, (I always look at Iowa for lineman)...when Brandon Sherrif was there and he was an OT. I can honestly say that I knew Sherrif was an OG even though he was a multi year starter at OT at Iowa. Especially after I caught the Iowa vs MD game that year on MSN/local cable ....and a little known kid (who I had mocked to us in several draft's that year as a later round sleeper) Yannick Ngakoue ABUSED him for 4 quarters. 

I see Wirfs with some of the Rarest OT tools, as I've every seen on a Olineman.......This guy reminds me of Bruce Mathews as far as his versatility.

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Im very much for taking the safest pick that has talent when it comes to tackle. 

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I am down to Becton and Wills in that order if they are there at #10 and only because I do not completely buy the "Oh, ya, ya, sure, sure" assumption that Wills can be as good at LT as he is at RT.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, DaWg_LB. said:

I see Wirfs with some of the Rarest OT tools, as I've every seen on a Olineman

Drafting based on tools is a dangerous proposition in the top-10.

The best tools in the world have value in the hands of a carpenter/craftsmen but those same tools mean nothing in the hands of an unskilled, beginner worker.

Wirfs Tools aren't functional nor do they translate to on-field Tackle viable and/or successful Tackle play. His technique at Tackle is poor but what's worse is his natural feel for the game as manifest by his down to down snap approach.

All the testing athleticism in the world but it only manifest on the field when he's uncovered blocking downfield or pulling. In that regard, he's the best we've ever seen. In other normal set snaps, he plays like an unsure slow-footed athlete in most Tackle Snaps. To be as athletic as he is that is an accomplishment.

Edited by Mind Character

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Posted (edited)

As long as the Browns don't take Tristan Wirfs and try to play him at Tackle it's hard for me to see the selection at 10 being terrible.

Jedrick Wills as I've said is clearly the best prospect by a wide margin, but as long as the Browns select one of Derrick Brown, Jeff Okudah, Isaiah Simmons, Mekhi Becton, or Andrew Thomas, the selection will make some sense.

Edited by Mind Character

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On 3/13/2020 at 11:26 PM, Mind Character said:

Drafting based on tools is a dangerous proposition in the top-10.

The best tools in the world have value in the hands of a carpenter/craftsmen but those same tools mean nothing in the hands of an unskilled, beginner worker.

Wirfs Tools aren't functional nor do they translate to on-field Tackle viable and/or successful Tackle play. His technique at Tackle is poor but what's worse is his natural feel for the game as manifest by his down to down snap approach.

All the testing athleticism in the world but it only manifest on the field when he's uncovered blocking downfield or pulling. In that regard, he's the best we've ever seen. In other normal set snaps, he plays like an unsure slow-footed athlete in most Tackle Snaps. To be as athletic as he is that is an accomplishment.

Agree with your point 1, but he is not ;just tool he has, its been the production, its also that he comes from one of the most technically sound schools at producing Olineman in College, and played for what is one of the top 3 best Oline coaches in college with Kirk Frentz.

And the rest of your post, I disagree with. The two years and the film I 1've watched tells me something very different than your assessment.

I see Tristin Wirfs, based off what I've heard from folks I respect assessments, and based off what I've seen, his ceiling seems to be a younger Healthy Trent Williams and his Floor is Quinton Nelson......that is an easy pick for me.

Also getting a jump on scouting next year for OT's........my two favorite tackles that will be around next year LT from Oregon (I watched a ton of Justin Herbert over the past 2 seasons) Penei Sewell and the replacement for Jack Concklin 2 seasons from now from Minnesota RT Daniel Faalele....

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26 minutes ago, DaWg_LB. said:

he comes from one of the most technically sound schools at producing Olineman in College, and played for what is one of the top 3 best Oline coaches in college with Kirk Frentz.

Experts say it best, "Scout the Player not the logo Helmet."

To me though, it's more alarming that Tristan Wirfs went to Iowa and not some other school that has deficiencies in teaching blocking.

Here is why: How do we explain that has the worst technique and natural feel for blocking out of all the Top Tackle Prospects in spite of the advanced teaching and instruction he received at Iowa?

For example, if a student attends a school that is world-renown in their teaching of mathematics and physics and tons of students come from that school with advanced understanding in those areas, what then would it say about a student that spends 3 years there and consistently displays basic failures of understanding and feel for physics and mathematics?

It would be like a DLineman spending 3 years under Larry Johnson Sr. at Ohio State and showing on film that they don't understand the fundamentals or natural feel technique for hand usage in run or pass defense.

It speaks to either a lack of diligence in his working on his craft or more likely in my mind a clear instinctual deficiency in his natural feel for the positon.

Wirfs' footwork and overall technique as a Tackle is unsure of itself, elementary, and totally unrefined. To me, it tells me a few things: 1.) He's does not have the natural feel or instincts to play the position at a high level in the pros, 2.) He was able to thrive in college due to his other-worldly athleticism and the fact that he was not challenge by DEs in college which will be different in the pros.

Now, for me everything changes when putting on the lens of Guard evaluation. Then, Wirfs becomes a clear 1st round prospect in the draft with immense through the rough all-pro upside.

If you haven't yet and have the time and desire to do so, check out https://youtu.be/6K-OL21I2xE

It's a good summary of some of Wirfs basic technical issues.

Coming from Iowa whether it be Reily Reiff, Ike Boettger, Brandon Scherrf, Bryan Bulaga, or David Bahktiari all of them were light years ahead of Wirfs in terms of technique.

For me, in terms of evaluating him at Tackle, if I think of Iowa-player specific comparisons Tristan Wirfs reminds me of a poorer technique version of Robert Gallery. As a Guard I think the more comparable comparison for Wirfs is Kevin Zeitler coming out of Wisconsin as a floor; with Ceiling being an athletic Marshal Yanda.

 

 

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20 hours ago, Mind Character said:

Experts say it best, "Scout the Player not the logo Helmet."

To me though, it's more alarming that Tristan Wirfs went to Iowa and not some other school that has deficiencies in teaching blocking.

Here is why: How do we explain that has the worst technique and natural feel for blocking out of all the Top Tackle Prospects in spite of the advanced teaching and instruction he received at Iowa?

For example, if a student attends a school that is world-renown in their teaching of mathematics and physics and tons of students come from that school with advanced understanding in those areas, what then would it say about a student that spends 3 years there and consistently displays basic failures of understanding and feel for physics and mathematics?

It would be like a DLineman spending 3 years under Larry Johnson Sr. at Ohio State and showing on film that they don't understand the fundamentals or natural feel technique for hand usage in run or pass defense.

It speaks to either a lack of diligence in his working on his craft or more likely in my mind a clear instinctual deficiency in his natural feel for the positon.

Wirfs' footwork and overall technique as a Tackle is unsure of itself, elementary, and totally unrefined. To me, it tells me a few things: 1.) He's does not have the natural feel or instincts to play the position at a high level in the pros, 2.) He was able to thrive in college due to his other-worldly athleticism and the fact that he was not challenge by DEs in college which will be different in the pros.

Now, for me everything changes when putting on the lens of Guard evaluation. Then, Wirfs becomes a clear 1st round prospect in the draft with immense through the rough all-pro upside.

If you haven't yet and have the time and desire to do so, check out https://youtu.be/6K-OL21I2xE

It's a good summary of some of Wirfs basic technical issues.

Coming from Iowa whether it be Reily Reiff, Ike Boettger, Brandon Scherrf, Bryan Bulaga, or David Bahktiari all of them were light years ahead of Wirfs in terms of technique.

For me, in terms of evaluating him at Tackle, if I think of Iowa-player specific comparisons Tristan Wirfs reminds me of a poorer technique version of Robert Gallery. As a Guard I think the more comparable comparison for Wirfs is Kevin Zeitler coming out of Wisconsin as a floor; with Ceiling being an athletic Marshal Yanda.

 

 

Much Respect as always....

I always Scout the Player, and not the Helmet Logo......at the same time, the Helmet Logo goes into Scouting the player. For example, if someone tells me the Browns are going to Draft a DB from Ohio State, LSU or South Carolina....I'm pretty Much IN on that guy, site unseen.

All these guy's need work on their Technique IMO, with Thomas having the most Pro Ready Skill's.

With Callahan in house for the next few seasons prayerfully, I am probably a little more risk tollerant and willing to bet on some ceiling, as we have one of the finest OL teachers in the league....IF not the best that's still around (Alex Gibbs, Donte Scharnectia, Tony Sparano were good ones too).

And I took a look at that clip you sent me, and I think it raises some valid points, at the same time, if you let me do a cut up of Wirf vs Wills I could paint a similar picture putting Wirfs in a better like than Wills.

I guess it comes down to what our eye's have told us. In Many things we see things very Similarly, and in some.....light years apart. That is one of the things that makes this Fun.

Wirfs reminds me of Eric Williams (Dallas OT) and that's that I think he can become.....but IF I'm completely Wrong (and I have been before...but I also started talking about Derrick Brown 4 years ago when he was recruited to Auburn ;))......and Wirfs has to kick inside, and he becomes Marshall Yanda....I'd be ok with that....OR if he is Bruce Matthews good and goes to Probowl's as a G and as a OT.

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Yeah Wirfs is probably best at guard

I think we end up drafting Andrew Thomas unless we can get Trent 

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4 hours ago, DaWg_LB. said:

Much Respect as always....

I always Scout the Player, and not the Helmet Logo......at the same time, the Helmet Logo goes into Scouting the player. For example, if someone tells me the Browns are going to Draft a DB from Ohio State, LSU or South Carolina....I'm pretty Much IN on that guy, site unseen.

All these guy's need work on their Technique IMO, with Thomas having the most Pro Ready Skill's.

With Callahan in house for the next few seasons prayerfully, I am probably a little more risk tollerant and willing to bet on some ceiling, as we have one of the finest OL teachers in the league....IF not the best that's still around (Alex Gibbs, Donte Scharnectia, Tony Sparano were good ones too).

And I took a look at that clip you sent me, and I think it raises some valid points, at the same time, if you let me do a cut up of Wirf vs Wills I could paint a similar picture putting Wirfs in a better like than Wills.

I guess it comes down to what our eye's have told us. In Many things we see things very Similarly, and in some.....light years apart. That is one of the things that makes this Fun.

Wirfs reminds me of Eric Williams (Dallas OT) and that's that I think he can become.....but IF I'm completely Wrong (and I have been before...but I also started talking about Derrick Brown 4 years ago when he was recruited to Auburn ;))......and Wirfs has to kick inside, and he becomes Marshall Yanda....I'd be ok with that....OR if he is Bruce Matthews good and goes to Probowl's as a G and as a OT.

It's always respect in the football discussion and there's always room for even strong disagreements.

That's what makes it fun and informative. It's better that we're not all robots in agreement.

But man you just said basically, " I always scout the player, and not the Helmet logo, BUT if someone tells me the Browns are going to draft a player with a certain Helmet logo, I'm pretty Much IN on that guy, site unseen" .... All I'm saying is that's the very definition of Helmet or Logo scouting.

My point was just that Wirfs deviates from what we've typically seen from the helmet/logo Iowa in terms of the highest level of technique, fundamentals, and feel/instinct for the Tackle position. And that worries me; that is, why does a guy coming from a school that produces Tackles/OLineman with expert technique and savvy instincts lack them. Is it his mentality? Is it effort? What's holding him back? Has the OLine teaching fallen off in recent years, or is he just a different type of learner?

In the end, maybe it clicks for Wirfs and he attacks improving his Technique at Tackle relentlessly and becomes an all-pro Tackle prospect worthy of a top 10 selection. I just don't see it at all and I've looked with a magnifying glass. I think Connor WIlliams from Dallas is an interesting comparison as he too had all the physical tools but mentality and/or instinct concerns. They've move him inside and he's thrived some. Wirfs has far more tools and ability than Williams, but ultimately I think his path to success is clear and it's at Guard.

It will be interesting to see how high he goes in the draft and what position is declared on selection. Part of me feels that he's going to fall out of the top 12, but then again he might go top 5. I have no clue.

^^^^ That is exactly

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Wirfs at OT in a traditional offense might be a bit dicey. In a heavy play action offense that utilizes the ZBS? No problems. Wirfs is going to be a stud. He is an A+ guard, but will be a great OT as well.

 

I've still not seen a great argument as to why he can't play OT in this scheme. He works very hard on the field and doesn't show himself to be lazy. I think he plays a little high at times which results in him losing power and balance, but that's literally the only flaw I see in his game at the moment. It rears its ugly head quite a bit, but I think that can be worked out.

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36 minutes ago, Mind Character said:

It's always respect in the football discussion and there's always room for even strong disagreements.

That's what makes it fun and informative. It's better that we're not all robots in agreement.

But man you just said basically, " I always scout the player, and not the Helmet logo, BUT if someone tells me the Browns are going to draft a player with a certain Helmet logo, I'm pretty Much IN on that guy, site unseen" .... All I'm saying is that's the very definition of Helmet or Logo scouting.

 

Maybe my thought process wasnt fully explained here...

If I was GM of a team, and you were my Director of College Scouting and were running the draft. There is no way one person can scout EVERYONE...we have BOTH tried that LOL. But If we had a pick in the 5th round and you were standing on the table for a DB, that I had never seen before, but you were saying "THIS IS THE GUY, WE'RE GETTING A STEAL".....I would ask for more info in most cases, but if this kid is from OSU, USC or LSU....and you were stomping on the table, I would give the thumbs up, because of the combination of the two.

Not I would be cool sight unseen drafting anyone based on position and school they went to.

Just to make sure I wasnt being confusing.

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After the Conklin signing I don’t see Wirfs as a good fit at 10. I’ve always seen him as a RT/OG. Giving his deficiencies as a pass blocker, I think it’d be a bad idea ask him to come in and immediately be Mayfield’s blindside protector especially when you want to eliminate Bakers bad habit of leaving the pocket prematurely 

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