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Mind Character

(Polls) Rank/Choose the Top Tackles & Joe Thomas Says Wirfs is a Guard

Rank the Tackles  

53 members have voted

  1. 1. Who's Your 2020 OT1 NFL Draft Prospect?

    • Mekhi Becton, OT Louisville
    • Andrew Thomas, OT Georgia
    • Jedrick Wills Jr., OT Alabama
    • Tristan Wirfs, OT/OG Iowa
    • Josh Jones, OT Houston
      0
    • Austin Jackson, OT USC
      0
  2. 2. Is there a Clear Best, Head and Shoulders Above the Rest Tackle Prospect in the Draft?

  3. 3. How Many Tackles Go Off the Board BEFORE the Browns Select?

    • 1
    • 2
    • 3
    • 4
    • 0 - None; We'll be Selecting the 1st Tackle Taken in the NFL Draft


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2 minutes ago, Dawgpoun8017 said:

My only concern with Thomas is his fit in a ZB S

That's a pretty big concern.

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Dawgpoun8017 said:

My only concern with Thomas is his fit in a ZB S

why is it a concern? what makes him not a fit?

MKC interview with Thomas around the combine

  • "Thomas, who began his college career at right tackle before switching to the left as a sophomore, can play either side of the line but prefers the left side. He’s also well-versed in the wide-zone blocking scheme of new Browns coach Kevin Stefanski and has the athleticism to run it. “We ran wide zone a lot,’’ he said. “We ran outside zone pretty much. Obviously inside zone was our main thing, but we ran outside zone pretty much, too. A lot of times we ran it to the open side with our tight end. Using your athleticism to reach guys and get up to the next level is just something that can be used in the NFL.’’

So Thomas ran zone in college.

Article from last year talking about Thomas being a potential fit for the Vikings in the 2020 draft

  • CBS Sports’ Chris Trapasso believes Thomas is a 2020 prospect who would be a good fit for Minnesota.“Thomas is a monster. Flat out. His blend of overpowering strength and effortless movement in any direction make him essentially unbeatable on the left side on pass plays and a heat-seeking bulldozer for Georgia’s ground game.While the Bulldogs deploy a lot of power plays in their rushing attack, Thomas’ overall athletic talent theoretically is a fit for the zone-blocking scheme the Vikings are installing this season and presumably will use in 2020.”

interview with Thomas, courtesy of Steve Helwagen at Bucknuts

  • Q: Thoughts on wide zone-blocking scheme and how well you can do it
  • A: "We ran wide zone a lot. A lot of times we ran it to the open side with our tight end, but just using your athleticism to be able to reach guys and get to the next level is something that I can use in the NFL. Inside zone was our main thing, but we ran some outside zone.”

Another evaluation about Thomas and his ability in the zone

  • Thomas is a nimble lineman who can keep up athletically with most of the defenders he goes up against. His acceleration coming out of his kick slide is admirable, and he has shown that he can play with lateral quickness when shuffling or when asked to accelerate to the second level. If you’re a team who utilizes its offensive linemen in zone-blocking or reach-blocking situations, Thomas would be a great fit in your system.

-----------------------------------------

So Thomas has stated they ran zone in college the past few years. Yet the dude was a 3x All American. Obviously the dude cant successfully block in a zone sche,e. Also we have a right handed QB. So a lot of players are going to be set up to run right, so play action can have baker looking to the right. So Thomas is going to be a back side tackle on run plays more so than being the front side tackle. So Thomas is going to see more potential man blocking assignments for the backside of zone. Job gets even easier when he faces a 3 man DL. Stop acting like Thomas isnt a talented guy. Just put on his tape. dude is a technician and will lead to his success in any system. The only other tackle who can potentially match technical ability with Thomas is Wills  

Edited by buno67

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My only concern with Thomas is his balance as a blocker in the move run game. He ends up on the ground a lot. That’s literally it. And it’s not a crippling problem, just something that needs to be worked on. And it’s extremely correctable. 

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1 hour ago, BleedTheClock said:

My only concern with Thomas is his balance as a blocker in the move run game. He ends up on the ground a lot. That’s literally it. And it’s not a crippling problem, just something that needs to be worked on. And it’s extremely correctable. 

This is my only real qualm about him as well. He looks off balance sometimes.

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1 hour ago, NudeTayne said:

This is my only real qualm about him as well. He looks off balance sometimes.

It’s weird. And it’s only in the run game. He tries to killshot block and loses his footing sometimes. That’s not a good thing for a zone blocking scheme, but it is correctable. He goes 100 mph in run blocking. He needs to go 100 and then figure out how to idle down and use his positioning to secure the block, rather than secure a pancake. 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

It’s weird. And it’s only in the run game. He tries to killshot block and loses his footing sometimes. That’s not a good thing for a zone blocking scheme, but it is correctable. He goes 100 mph in run blocking. He needs to go 100 and then figure out how to idle down and use his positioning to secure the block, rather than secure a pancake. 

Yup. He's like a (offensive tackle-speed) heat-seeking missile. I've seen him get three guys blocked. I believe he can excel in our scheme with guidance from a little Willie C.

Edited by NudeTayne

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9 minutes ago, NudeTayne said:

Yup. He's like a (offensive tackle-speed) heat-seeking missile. I've seen him get three guys blocked. I believe he can excel in our scheme with guidance from a little Willie C.

Don’t talk about my Willie like that  

 

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Just now, BleedTheClock said:

Don’t talk about my Willie like that  

It's what close friends of his call him 🤷‍♂️.

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1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

@Mind Character I'm finally ready to give you my OT synopsis/rankings:

1. Wills: He's the most polished and fundamentally sound, he's played in a hybrid Pro Style offense, and his tape is close to immaculate. My concerns with him going forward are that he's physically "maxed out" and likely won't get stronger and will likely never be a "mauler" in the run game. IMO he's gone at #10 and I think you're living in a fantasy land wanting him at #10.

2. Thomas: He's got arguably the highest floor, played in a Pro Style offense, his work ethic and "mean streak" are legendary, and his punch/strength is superb. He's solid in pass pro, and if he can figure out his balance in the run game/finishing, then he's going to be a dominant OT. He's my pick at #10 as I think he will be there

3. Wirfs: He's an elite athlete, comes for a perfect offensive system in Iowa, and even if he's a "bust" at OT, I think he's a Pro Bowl caliber OG.

4. Becton: I don't see it. His height/weight combination and build terrify me, especially at the LT position. I think that he's a poor man's Mount McKinnie. He's the one guy that I just plain DO NOT WANT us to draft, and if given the option of him or a position player, I'd go position player for sure.

MWil has spoken...

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On 3/29/2020 at 6:57 PM, buno67 said:

why is it a concern? what makes him not a fit?

MKC interview with Thomas around the combine

  • "Thomas, who began his college career at right tackle before switching to the left as a sophomore, can play either side of the line but prefers the left side. He’s also well-versed in the wide-zone blocking scheme of new Browns coach Kevin Stefanski and has the athleticism to run it. “We ran wide zone a lot,’’ he said. “We ran outside zone pretty much. Obviously inside zone was our main thing, but we ran outside zone pretty much, too. A lot of times we ran it to the open side with our tight end. Using your athleticism to reach guys and get up to the next level is just something that can be used in the NFL.’’

So Thomas ran zone in college.

Article from last year talking about Thomas being a potential fit for the Vikings in the 2020 draft

  • CBS Sports’ Chris Trapasso believes Thomas is a 2020 prospect who would be a good fit for Minnesota.“Thomas is a monster. Flat out. His blend of overpowering strength and effortless movement in any direction make him essentially unbeatable on the left side on pass plays and a heat-seeking bulldozer for Georgia’s ground game.While the Bulldogs deploy a lot of power plays in their rushing attack, Thomas’ overall athletic talent theoretically is a fit for the zone-blocking scheme the Vikings are installing this season and presumably will use in 2020.”

interview with Thomas, courtesy of Steve Helwagen at Bucknuts

  • Q: Thoughts on wide zone-blocking scheme and how well you can do it
  • A: "We ran wide zone a lot. A lot of times we ran it to the open side with our tight end, but just using your athleticism to be able to reach guys and get to the next level is something that I can use in the NFL. Inside zone was our main thing, but we ran some outside zone.”

Another evaluation about Thomas and his ability in the zone

  • Thomas is a nimble lineman who can keep up athletically with most of the defenders he goes up against. His acceleration coming out of his kick slide is admirable, and he has shown that he can play with lateral quickness when shuffling or when asked to accelerate to the second level. If you’re a team who utilizes its offensive linemen in zone-blocking or reach-blocking situations, Thomas would be a great fit in your system.

-----------------------------------------

So Thomas has stated they ran zone in college the past few years. Yet the dude was a 3x All American. Obviously the dude cant successfully block in a zone sche,e. Also we have a right handed QB. So a lot of players are going to be set up to run right, so play action can have baker looking to the right. So Thomas is going to be a back side tackle on run plays more so than being the front side tackle. So Thomas is going to see more potential man blocking assignments for the backside of zone. Job gets even easier when he faces a 3 man DL. Stop acting like Thomas isnt a talented guy. Just put on his tape. dude is a technician and will lead to his success in any system. The only other tackle who can potentially match technical ability with Thomas is Wills  

 

There's some important things to realize about those comments so as to not misconstrue Andrew Thomas as a Outside Zone fit Tackle Prospect.

Every single playbook in college football except for a few gimmick offenses includes basic concepts like Inside-Zone, Outside Zone, Power, etc.

Most Lineman in College have "ran outside zone" and are familiar with the concept as it's one of the few pillars of the run game.

The Relevant question isn't if a player ever "ran outside zone," but instead how much were outside zone concepts used in the offense, and more importantly whether said player has the ability from an athletic and mental standpoint to run outside zone in the NFL as it's a different beast much like read-option QBs in college often don't have necessary traits to thrive in that scheme at the pro-level.

To that end, Georgia was a 90% Inside Zone team that also focuses on power and power counters via gap scheming. They also were not play-action heavy team as a core tenet despite having D'Andre Swift.

The Browns ran outside zone ( far too few of times) last year with Freddie Kitchens, but we were not an "Outside Zone" primarily team. We wouldn't say that Greg Robinson is necessarily an Outside Zone scheme fit b/c the Browns "ran outside zone." It's about the player's core play ability, traits, and ability to make the appropriate decisions in said scheme.

So, the question is Andrew Thomas have the core play traits required to thrive at Outside Down, Play-Action heavy sameness of technique scheme at the NFL Level, and what strengths/deficiencies show up in college if any when the team runs outside zone?

The answer is that Outside Zone requires a high level of general balance, an even higher level of contact balance on the move, core functional strength on the move, a high level of processioning or decision-making, a high level of hip and ankle flexibility and mobility, and more.

Andrew Thomas' biggest weakness in the consensus evaluation of expert scouting eyes is his General Balance, Contact Balance, Balance on the Move, and Instincts in space. He's always on the ground too much. He also struggles with hip flexibility and hip mobility on outside zone calls. Furthermore, he's not natural getting to targets and blocking them in space.

His outside zone specific scheme athleticism and decision-making deficiencies have led people like legendary OLine coach Larry Zierlein (father of NFL draft analyst/scout Lance Zierlein) to recommend that his son, Lance, see Thomas as a better and wonderful fit for a gap scheme where Thomas can play head up and use his great short area and telephone booth blocking instincts to thrive.

 

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An OT named Thomas in Cleveland. What’s there to think about?

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2 hours ago, Mind Character said:

 

There's some important things to realize about those comments so as to not misconstrue Andrew Thomas as a Outside Zone fit Tackle Prospect.

Every single playbook in college football except for a few gimmick offenses includes basic concepts like Inside-Zone, Outside Zone, Power, etc.

Most Lineman in College have "ran outside zone" and are familiar with the concept as it's one of the few pillars of the run game.

The Relevant question isn't if a player ever "ran outside zone," but instead how much were outside zone concepts used in the offense, and more importantly whether said player has the ability from an athletic and mental standpoint to run outside zone in the NFL as it's a different beast much like read-option QBs in college often don't have necessary traits to thrive in that scheme at the pro-level.

To that end, Georgia was a 90% Inside Zone team that also focuses on power and power counters via gap scheming. They also were not play-action heavy team as a core tenet despite having D'Andre Swift.

The Browns ran outside zone ( far too few of times) last year with Freddie Kitchens, but we were not an "Outside Zone" primarily team. We wouldn't say that Greg Robinson is necessarily an Outside Zone scheme fit b/c the Browns "ran outside zone." It's about the player's core play ability, traits, and ability to make the appropriate decisions in said scheme.

So, the question is Andrew Thomas have the core play traits required to thrive at Outside Down, Play-Action heavy sameness of technique scheme at the NFL Level, and what strengths/deficiencies show up in college if any when the team runs outside zone?

The answer is that Outside Zone requires a high level of general balance, an even higher level of contact balance on the move, core functional strength on the move, a high level of processioning or decision-making, a high level of hip and ankle flexibility and mobility, and more.

Andrew Thomas' biggest weakness in the consensus evaluation of expert scouting eyes is his General Balance, Contact Balance, Balance on the Move, and Instincts in space. He's always on the ground too much. He also struggles with hip flexibility and hip mobility on outside zone calls. Furthermore, he's not natural getting to targets and blocking them in space.

His outside zone specific scheme athleticism and decision-making deficiencies have led people like legendary OLine coach Larry Zierlein (father of NFL draft analyst/scout Lance Zierlein) to recommend that his son, Lance, see Thomas as a better and wonderful fit for a gap scheme where Thomas can play head up and use his great short area and telephone booth blocking instincts to thrive.

 

all great points. I think Thomas would be better in a man scheme but I also dont think he is incapable of being just find in the zone. he doesnt need to be this amazing run blocker. Just adequate to go with his pass blocking ability. 

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