(Polls) Rank/Choose the Top Tackles & Joe Thomas Says Wirfs is a Guard

[cattleman78]

great blue north has an article about Joe Thomas talking about the 4 top tackles. He said all 4 could play left tackle. He said Wirfs the best run blocker and Becton and Wills best pass protecters. Interesting article.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

3 hours ago, cattleman78 said:

great blue north has an article about Joe Thomas talking about the 4 top tackles. He said all 4 could play left tackle. He said Wirfs the best run blocker and Becton and Wills best pass protecters. Interesting article.

https://www.brownsnation.com/joe-thomas-reveals-his-best-browns-draft-fit-at-left-tackle/

[buno67]

3 hours ago, cattleman78 said:

great blue north has an article about Joe Thomas talking about the 4 top tackles. He said all 4 could play left tackle. He said Wirfs the best run blocker and Becton and Wills best pass protecters. Interesting article.

Thomas also said Shon Coleman could be a starting caliber LT. He said Wills and Becton are skilled pass blockers, not the best. Best pass blocker out of the group is Thomas. 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

19 minutes ago, buno67 said:

Thomas also said Shon Coleman could be a starting caliber LT.

Yeah I think he’s shown he’s not exactly clairvoyant when it comes to discussing young players.

19 minutes ago, buno67 said:

He said Wills and Becton are skilled pass blockers, not the best. Best pass blocker out of the group is Thomas. 

I wish he would give his rationale for his opinions.  While he’s obviously whiffed previously (who hasn’t), he still knows the game and position at an absurdly high level and would love to hear more more than those basic opinions.

[Mind Character]

2 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

wish he would give his rationale for his opinions.  While he’s obviously whiffed previously (who hasn’t), he still knows the game and position at an absurdly high level and would love to hear more more than those basic opinions.

For about an hour segment on a show called Cleveland Browns Daily (an Episode after the combine), he gave rationale and reasoning behind his OT rankings as well as why he thought Wirfs and Josh Jones were likely Guards.

Ultimately, the opinion of Wirfs as Guard is not an isolated one as many respecred expert scout believe Wirfs is a Guard but his athleticism makes them intrigued about his Tackle potential.

Edited April 4, 2020 by Mind Character

[pnies20]

This is your weekly reminder that while, yes, Wirfs would be a good guard, his best position is RT.

Thank you for your time.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

58 minutes ago, Mind Character said:

For about an hour segment on a show called Cleveland Browns Daily (an Episode after the combine), he gave rationale and reasoning behind his OT rankings as well as why he thought Wirfs and Josh Jones were likely Guards.

Ultimately, the opinion of Wirfs as Guard is not an isolated one as many respecred expert scout believe Wirfs is a Guard but his athleticism makes them intrigued about his Tackle potential.

Would you take him at 10 if the other tackles are off the board?
 

Try him at LT and if he doesn’t cut it be happy with an elite RG?

[brownie man]

4 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Would you take him at 10 if the other tackles are off the board?
 

Try him at LT and if he doesn’t cut it be happy with an elite RG?

That’s the most interesting situation. 

that would suck. I’m probably going to try and see what I could get with a trade down and target Austin or Josh Jones

 

if I cant trade down I’d take Wirfs and try to make sure I got another potential LT later to develop there if Wirfs doesn’t fit. But yeah that’s definitely the most interesting situation 

Edited April 4, 2020 by brownie man

[Mind Character]

9 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Would you take him at 10 if the other tackles are off the board?
 

Try him at LT and if he doesn’t cut it be happy with an elite RG?

**No, I don't believe in taking a Guard top 10 based on the elite quality ZBS-Guards and/or Guard-Converts likely available in the 2nd Round and beyond (i.e., Robert Hunt, Cesar Ruiz, Daishawn Dixon, Netane Muti, Jack Driscoll), as well as foregoing the opportunity cost of trade-down(s) to acquire present and future draft capital that can be used not only on a Guard but also other positions of greater positional value.

Guards are vital to ZBS schemes but it would be a waste of value when the Browns could have their cake (Trade Down to get more quality chances to gamble) and eat it too (Use some of the draft capital acquired or otherwise to get an elite RG in the 2nd or beyond).

It might make some sense if I believed in Wirfs as a quality LT in some degree but I just don't see it being anything but a prolonged project with struggles that only hurt his confidence and quality impact whenever he is moved to Guard inevitably.

**Only way I would consider doing it would be if we were guaranteed to get Austin Jackson or some other LT long-term prospect by trading back into round 1 of up in round 2 (and I don't see Josh Jones as that). Also, the belief in Bill Callahan as a developer gives credence to such a plan slightly imo.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Mind Character

[Horseunit]

@Mind Character What are your thoughts on Cameron Clark LT #71 Charlotte I think he's listed at 6'5" 279ish as a mid round target?  He looks like he's got decent power and quick feet for what we are looking for in a developmental lineman.  I don't have the keen eyes like you so take a look and let me know what you think. 

 

[Mind Character]

8 hours ago, Horseunit said:

@Mind Character What are your thoughts on Cameron Clark LT #71 Charlotte I think he's listed at 6'5" 279ish as a mid round target?  He looks like he's got decent power and quick feet for what we are looking for in a developmental lineman.  I don't have the keen eyes like you so take a look and let me know what you think. 

He's DOA as a Tackle in the pros; however, in my notebook, I had Clark grouped in with 5 other prospects that I considered to be potentially good to really good developmental, late round prospects as Tackle to Guard Converts. I had Cole Van Lanen, OT/OG-Convert Wisconsin as the clear leader in around similar grades for such players.

I only watched 4 games of Clark, but my take-aways were that he falls off blocks too much, opens the gate consistently allowing short and easy angles to the QB for defenders, doesn't sustain well, lacks instinctual squareness and has even more deficiencies in terms of functional strength. However, he competes, has a nasty streak, adequate feet, and works to the second level well with good instincts. I had him with what amounts to a developmental, role player with limited starter upside by year 3 or 4. That's basically a 6th to UDFA grade.

Those grouped prospects were the following:

124.) Cole Van Lanen, OT/OG Wisconsin 

131.) Hunter Atkinson, OT/OG Georgia State

148.) Cameron Clark, OT/OG Charlotte

167A.) Eric Quevedo, OG Boise State

167B.) Nathan Gilliam, OT/OG Wake Forest

174.) Zack Johnson, OT/OG NDSU

175.) John Molchon, OG Boise State

-- In short, I don't see Clark as a Tackle at the next level, but he has some developmental Guard ability and has a 6th to 7th draftable grade, but will likely be a coveted UDFA prospect given his play disposition for teams that see him as a Guard Convert.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Mind Character

[bruceb]

Looking at the CBSsports prospect grades I think it might make sense to trade down from 10 if one of the D blue chips doesn't fall to us.

Thomas =  6.49

Wirfs = 6.48

Becton = 6.74

Wills = 6.85

If it comes down to Thomas and Wirfs still available, not all that much better than the next tier, imo:

Jones = 6.37

Jackson = 6.34

 

[Mind Character]

18 hours ago, bruceb said:

Looking at the CBSsports prospect grades I think it might make sense to trade down from 10 if one of the D blue chips doesn't fall to us.

Thomas =  6.49

Wirfs = 6.48

Becton = 6.74

Wills = 6.85

If it comes down to Thomas and Wirfs still available, not all that much better than the next tier, imo:

Jones = 6.37

Jackson = 6.34

Those grades look like NFL.com's Lance Zierlein, Daniel Jeremiah, and staffs grades which happen to come with a "Grade Key."

That Grade Key is the following:

 

8.0 - The perfect prospect                   7.3-7.5 - Perennial All-Pro               7.0-7.1 - Pro Bowl talent          6.7-6.8 - Year 1 quality starter        6.5 - Boom or bust prospect

6.3-6.4 -- Will be starter within first two seasons           6.1-6.2 -- Good backup who could become starter          6.0 -- Developmental traits-based prospect  

5.8-5.9 -- Backup/special-teamer   5.5-5.6 -- Chance to make end of roster or practice squad  5.4 -- Priority free agent     5.0-5.1 -- Chance to be in an NFL training camp

 

According to the key, they are saying Jedrick Wills jr. is above Year 1 Quality Starter but just below a Pro Bowl talent out of the gate.

Becton is a "Year 1 Quality Starter"

Wirfs is above a "Will be starter within first two seasons" but right on the nose of a "Boom or bust prospect"

Josh Jones, Andrew Thomas, and Austin Jackson fall into the "Will be starter within first two seasons"

 

Though the numbers are close that's actually a pretty big fall off from a 6.85 to a 6.34 going from essentially a pro-bowl talent to a starter of various qualities by year 2. My personal grades would've seen Wills as a 7.15 with Becton being in the Boom or Bust range and Wirfs being lower as Tackle. Everyone else's grades are about right imo.

 

To me, Josh Jones isn't in the same league/category as Andrew Thomas and really even Austin Jackson. I don't think Jones is a scheme fit either.

 

The problem ultimately is if we trade down how far is just right to get an Austin Jackson. Even if the Browns do trade down let's hope Berry and co have the right sense of where to go and still get their guy.

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Mind Character

[bruceb]

7 hours ago, Mind Character said:

The problem ultimately is if we trade down how far is just right to get an Austin Jackson. Even if the Browns do trade down let's hope Berry and co have the right sense of where to go and still get their guy.

I am thinking mid-20s.

That might take two tradedowns, but probably would give us enough extra ammo to make sure we get the next two-three guys that we really want, unless the extra draft capital is 2021 picks.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

The thing fans seemingly always overlook is I highly doubt our “big boards” look like the front offices.

Unlike generic CBS/NFL.com rankings, they’re doing to adjust for things like scheme fit.  They’re also going to have a much better idea of character and personality issues than we as fans do, which will greatly impact how they value prospects.

So while we all say “just take one of the top 4 tackles at 10” it’s highly unlikely they view all of those guys equally or even the same 4 guys as the top 4 prospects at OT.

I want them to address the OT spot within the first 2 rounds at a minimum, ideally at 10, but if their guy is gone or the guy they have rated highest at OT is a lesser prospect than what’s on the board, don’t force it, we have plenty of other needs.