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Mind Character

(Polls) Rank/Choose the Top Tackles & Joe Thomas Says Wirfs is a Guard

Rank the Tackles  

53 members have voted

  1. 1. Who's Your 2020 OT1 NFL Draft Prospect?

    • Mekhi Becton, OT Louisville
    • Andrew Thomas, OT Georgia
    • Jedrick Wills Jr., OT Alabama
    • Tristan Wirfs, OT/OG Iowa
    • Josh Jones, OT Houston
      0
    • Austin Jackson, OT USC
      0
  2. 2. Is there a Clear Best, Head and Shoulders Above the Rest Tackle Prospect in the Draft?

  3. 3. How Many Tackles Go Off the Board BEFORE the Browns Select?

    • 1
    • 2
    • 3
    • 4
    • 0 - None; We'll be Selecting the 1st Tackle Taken in the NFL Draft


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Posted (edited)

1.) Rank Your top Tackle Prospects and Why?

2.) Who has the highest floor? Who's the safest prospect?

3.) Who has the highest ceiling?

4.) Is there a clear best Tackle and Why?

5.) (FYI -- Even Joe Thomas Says Wirfs is a Guard)

 

---------------------

Joe Thomas On Wirfs and the Tackles

Joe Thomas is not a scout and has been transparent that he's has not watched the depth of film of the Tackle prospects on the level of a scout. He has however stated that he has seen some film on each of the top tackle prospects in preparation for his combine coverage so that he could have some baseline knowledge about the top guys. He also intently watched and analyzed the top Tackle prospects and big OLine names during their combine workouts. During and post combine, he conveyed some of his thoughts to NFL and Browns related media.

Below, Joe Thomas in His Own Words during an appearance on a show called Cleveland Browns Daily:

     " I see Tristan Wirfs especially early on in his career as a guy that might start out as a Guard because just the way he moves he doesn't have as much hip mobility as I think he would need to come in and start right away as an Offensive Tackle and so when I watch him I think that he's probably going to end up starting right away as a Guard so for the Cleveland Browns they've got at least 1 really good Guard already so I think with that 1st pick they're going to be thinking offensive tackle and that's why I would put Tristan Wirfs back and say Andrew Thomas is more ready to start now as a prototypical offensive tackle. Number 3 as an offensive tackle I'd put Jedrick Wills...."    --- Joe Thomas ----

-----

Joe Thomas also gave a ranking based on his combine observations of movement dynamics, footwork, and the sampling of film he's watched of the Top Big Name Tackles which was the following:

1.) Mekhi Becton:
2.) Andrew Thomas
3.) Jedrick Wills Jr.

The next grouping he had as Guard Primary Tackle Maybe with an emphasis on the Maybe with a strained doubt intonation.

4.) Tristan Wirfs (** after giving his first reasoning on Wirfs as a Guard he called Wirfs a Guard 3 other times in the conversation.)
5.) Josh Jones. (Called Jones a Guard But Maybe Tackle)

--------------------------------------

 

My Rankings & General Evaluative Summary:

**All prospects have positive and negative qualities, but analyzing the positives and negatives of the Tackle class in my opinion reveals a clear OT1 that is head and shoulders above the rest.**

1.) Jedrick Wills Jr.

The Good:

Plays with uncanny natural knee bend, a natural extremely low center of gravity, and fantastic balance. Natural intuitive feel for leverage play and has elite body control. He plays with length, as well as with the highest level of functional strength and functional athleticism out of the group. He's a people mover who displaces even high level competition and has the blocking mentality and demeanor of a high level prospect looking to dominate the defender and make his presence known from the 1st to 4th Quarter. He has highlight blocks where he takes out 2 and sometimes 3 defenders to devastating effects. Sweet feet, powerful hands, and works hard and efficiently when on the move toward second level blocks. His anchor and redirect is out of this world. Finishes. Hand placement and technique is consistently elite. Has a high level of conditioning and sustained ability endurance.

The Bad:

Doesn't sustain blocks like you'd like to see in situations where he clearly has the decisive advantage. Gets overextended over his knees when working to prevent inside counter moves causing him to lose balance and lunge fall forward at times. His technique and assignment diligence regresses in blowout wins in the 4th Quarter when you'd like to see him finish and maintain focus. Has occasional mental lapses and struggles with punch and anchor timing when going up against wide-9 aligned Defensive Ends. In general, his worst tape is against wide-9 defenders and needs a complete overhaul of footwork and decision-making when going against such defensive schemes. Recognition skills when presented with exotic fronts or blitzes gives him trouble when rushers come from wide alignments and his true priority assignment is inside.

---

2.) Mekhi Becton

The Good:

Becton is indeed a super freak. He is the ultimate people mover who gets up in and under guys and makes them look silly. He mauls guys and is a devastating blocker on the move. Plays with consistent effort through 3 Quarters and uses his length to his advantage. Dominant blocking mentality. Is a loose and fluid athlete despite issues in foot biomechanical coordination.There's no better Tackle in the draft when Becton is locked in, prepared, and knowledgeable of his responsibilities, blocking angles, and blocking keys. Anchor and redirect is special. Has a natural feel for angles. Finishes through the whistle even when exhausted due to likely conditioning issues. When he properly identifies 2nd level responsibilities it's some of the most fun and memorable tape you'll ever see as he just ragdolls defenders on the move. His one arm push followed by his linear acceleration to the second level is remarkable.

The Bad:

Jekyll and Hyde 2019 versus 2018 film begs the question who's the real Mekhi? Hand placement is all over the place. Lacks endurance and fitness as his hands are on his hips and his technique and effort regress in the 4th Quarter. Oddly enough though, when he went against top competition (only 5 times his whole career really) he never displayed the dominance he shows when he knows his opponent is over-matched. Lacks the decision-making and targeting awareness on second level blocks. He lacks functional quick change of direction, technical feet, and hip flexibility to thrive in certain elements of a zone blocking scheme. His teammates often get frustrated with him when he blows assignments and they showed their frustration with him on the field multiple times. That likely happens only when they know he's been corrected to do something but he's not holding up his end of the bargain.  High cut and has a high center of gravity. Has weight concerns and consistency issues, but his traits are off the charts and he has the raw ability to be a special player.

---

3.) Andrew Thomas

The Good:

Thomas' best quality is his play mentality/demeanor and his natural instincts and intuitive decisions to just get guys blocked even when it looks ugly. When on the field, he gives maximal effort and fights to the bitter end. He has the 2nd highest floor of the group and is sure to be a quality player in a particular scheme (also has the lowest ceiling of the top Tackles). Has a feel for the game regarding inside counters, as well as how to stay back in his stance and patiently, decisively punch with purpose. Sustains and finishes better than anyone in the OT class. Uses his length to his advantage. Has an advanced feel and instinctual awareness of angles to minimize the negative impact of his lateral movement/agility deficiencies. A fantastic gap scheme prospect with tremendous movement scheme deficiencies.

The Bad:

Lacks the functional athleticism to be elite in a movement based system, but beyond that his biggest weakness is his poor contact balance which sees him on the ground a ton. Did I mention how often he's on the ground or caught off balance? It's a lot. Solomon Kindley cleaned up a lot of his inside counter misses. He also struggles with help blocks as he often doesn't correctly identify stunts or uneven line stacks where his responsibilities change. Crosses his feet and/or heel clicks too often. Has deficient change of direction quickness and initial set movement balance. Waist bends too often. Struggles to hit targets and work to targets at the second level or on the move. He lacks elite traits but makes up for it with his natural feel for the game and willingness to leave it all on the field and battle. Too often lets Defensive Ends get underneath his bad and bend direct angles to the QB. Can he improve his balance and technique and overcome off the field red flags (i.e., arguments with strength coaches, missing workouts). Is he going to be reliable as a pro?

---

4.) Tristan Wirfs

The Good:

He is out of this world, truly otherworldly on a level never before seen in the draft when he is uncovered on the move working to the second level, running down-field on blocks, or pulling. It's a thing of unparalleled beauty. Has explosive quickness and natural feel for playing with force when working uncovered. Has an intuitive feel for hitting targets in open space. Has a naturally strong anchor with a low center of gravity. Uncanny balance and recovery skills. When he decides that he wants to be the most dominant OLineman in the country there are few players that can match the level of his play when he's dialed in with an aggressive and nasty blocking mentality.  Doesn't get too high and doesn't get too low with his mentality. Makes it look easy and doesn't strain in movement. His down the field highlight real of best plays looks like things out an OLine Coaches dreams.

The Bad:

He hands down has the worst technique (i.e., sloppy feet, oversetting, opens the gate to the sideline, etc) and blocking attitude/mentality/disposition out of the group. Despite his unbelievable testing strength he doesn't play with pop or power in his hands and never mauls anyone preferring wrestle or bear hug guys in the direction of his block. He plays like a short-armed guard letting guys get into him and sometimes under him despite 34" arms. Because he's strong his bear hugs are effective, but he's more finesse than a people mover. So much raw ability, but the worry is does he have the mentality to truly be dominant. He's been criticized as "too nice" and having "all the tools but not the mindset" since his wrestling days in high school. Is he going  be able lock into the right mindset to become a pro-bowl caliber Tackle talent in the NFL?  He certainly has the highest ceiling but he also has the lowest floor as  ankle. Joe Thomas recently called Wirfs a Guard because of his hip immobility. I've seen the same thing for a long time now (as have many others) regarding his hip flexibility and critical technique and feel for the Tackle game deficiencies. All of his issues and technique and play trait weaknesses are virtually wiped out if he moves to Guard paving the way for an All-Pro Career.

------------

Best Consistent Blocking Disposition/Attitude, Blocking Demeanor, and Willingness to Finish

1.) Andrew Thomas
2.) Jedrick Wills Jr.
3.) Mekhi Becton
4.)  Tristan Wirfs

Best Consistent Technique Via Play at Tackle

1.) Jedrick Wills Jr.
2.) Andrew Thomas
3.) Mekhi Becton
4.) Tristan Wirfs

Best Unharnessed Power/Strength

1.) Tristan Wirfs
2.) Mekhi Becton
3.) Jedrick Wills Jr.
4.) Andrew Thomas

Best Functional People Moving Play Strength (Not Testing Strength) Via Play at Tackle

1.) Mekhi Becton
2.) Jedrick Wills Jr.
3.) Andrew Thomas
4.) Tristan Wirfs

Best Functional Feet Via Play at Tackle

1.) Jedrick Wills Jr.
2.) Mekhi Becton
3.) Tristan Wirfs
4.) Andrew Thomas

Best Raw Unrefined Athleticism

1.) Tristan Wirfs
2.) Mekhi Becton
3.) Jedrick Wills Jr.
4.) Andrew Thomas

Best Functional Movement and Agility Skills

1.) Jedrick Wills Jr.
2.) Tristan Wirfs
3.) Mekhi Becton
4.) Andrew Thomas 

Best Out in Space

1.) Tristan Wirfs (and no one else is close)
2.) Jedrick Wills Jr.
3.) Mekhi Becton
4.) Andrew Thomas

Best and Most Consistent Down-the-Field Wow Plays

1.) Tristan Wirfs (and no one else is close)
2.) Mekhi Becton
3.) Jedrick Wills Jr.
4.) Andrew Thomas

Best Hands and Punch

1.) Jedrick Wills Jr.
2.) Mekhi Becton
3.) Andrew Thomas
4.) Tristan Wirfs

Best Play with Length

1.) Jedrick Wills Jr.
2.) Mekhi Becton
3.) Andrew Thomas
4.) Tristan Wirfs

Best Processing, Awareness, and Decision-Making

1.) Jedrick Wills Jr.
2.) Tristan Wirfs
3.) Andrew Thomas
4.) Mekhi Becton

Lowest-Low Plays

1.) Tristan Wirfs
2.) Andrew Thomas 
3.) Mekhi Becton
4.) Jedrick Wills Jr.

Highest-High Plays

1.) Mekhi Becton
2.) Tristan Wirfs
3.) Jedrick Wills Jr.
4.) Andrew Thomas 

Who's the Safest Prospect at Tackle?

1.) Jedrick Wills Jr.
2.) Andrew Thomas
3.) Mekhi Becton
4.) Tristan Wirfs

Who has the Highest Floor at Tackle?

1.) Jedrick Wills Jr.
2.) Andrew Thomas
3.) Mekhi Becton
4.) Tristan Wirfs

Who has the Highest Ceiling at Tackle?

1.) Mekhi Becton
2.) Jedrick Wills
3.) Tristan Wirfs** (Highest Ceiling at Guard)
4.) Andrew Thomas

Best Balance and Contact Balance

1.) Jedrick Wills Jr.
2.) Mekhi Becton
3.) Tristan Wirfs
4.) Andrew Thomas 

Best ZBS-Fit

1.) Jedrick Wills Jr.
2.) Tristan Wirfs
3.) Mekhi Becton
4.) Andrew Thomas 

Most Red Flags

1.) Andrew Thomas (No Crimes just workout/practice commitment issues, but shows up like he loves it on game day).
2.) Mekhi Becton (Weight Issues; Conditioning Issues)
3.) Tristan Wirfs (DUI; Looks for escape when the pressures on)
4.) Jedrick Wills Jr.

Edited by Mind Character

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Well Andrew Thomas did murder that guy and steal that kitten.

Pretty reasonable points. I'd feel good about any of them but Becton. I just have a really bad feeling there. I like Thomas more than you, though, but I do wonder whether he might be best suited at right tackle in the pros.

 

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, NudeTayne said:

Pretty reasonable points. I'd feel good about any of them but Becton. I just have a really bad feeling there. I like Thomas more than you, though, but I do wonder whether he might be best suited at right tackle in the pros.

1.) I truly believe Andrew Thomas is the worst Zone-Blocking Scheme Fit of the group. That's the central motivator behind my dislike for Thomas. If we were a gap-scheme, my opinions about him would be much different. He's a Left Tackle, but just not in a movement or ZBS scheme imo.

2.) I'm averse to any red flags regarding players' commitment, reliability, and/or dependability. I trust the people that told me he missed workouts and strength and conditioning sessions and argued with coaches instead of taking ownership of the mistake to teammates and coaches when he came back. In the end, that's not a fatal or terrible "off the field red flag" but it's enough to wonder what else is out there or his maturity level. Maybe the Browns and/or other Teams with the resources to do so can figure out what Thomas is really about or if he can grow.

Edited by Mind Character

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Joe T was right about Corbett not being a gaurd. 

 

Probably worth listening to.

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Posted (edited)

No set of facts on which I want Wirfs or Thomas.

Edited by bruceb
Complete thought

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Posted (edited)

There are derps and then there are derp derps the likes that can't tell up from down, fantasy from reality, propaganda from truth, and quite simply wouldn't know facts if they came and bit them in the arse.

------------------------------

Joe Thomas is not a scout and has been transparent that he's has not watched the depth of film of the Tackle prospects on the level of a scout. He has however stated that he has seen some film on each of the top tackle prospects in preparation for his combine coverage so that he could have some baseline knowledge about the top guys. He also intently watched and analyzed the top Tackle prospects and big OLine names during their combine workouts. During and post combine, he conveyed some of his thoughts to NFL and Browns related media.

Below, Joe Thomas in His Own Words during an appearance on a show called Cleveland Browns Daily:

     " I see Tristan Wirfs especially early on in his career as a guy that might start out as a Guard because just the way he moves he doesn't have as much hip mobility as I think he would need to come in and start right away as an Offensive Tackle and so when I watch him I think that he's probably going to end up starting right away as a Guard so for the Cleveland Browns they've got at least 1 really good Guard already so I think with that 1st pick they're going to be thinking offensive tackle and that's why I would put Tristan Wirfs back and say Andrew Thomas is more ready to start now as a prototypical offensive tackle. Number 3 as an offensive tackle I'd put Jedrick Wills...."    --- Joe Thomas ----

-----

Joe Thomas also gave a ranking based on his combine observations of movement dynamics, footwork, and the sampling of film he's watched of the Top Big Name Tackles which was the following:

1.) Mekhi Becton:
2.) Andrew Thomas
3.) Jedrick Wills Jr.

The next grouping he had as Guard Primary Tackle Maybe with an emphasis on the Maybe with a strained doubt intonation.

4.) Tristan Wirfs (** after giving his first reasoning on Wirfs as a Guard he called Wirfs a Guard 3 other times in the conversation.)
5.) Josh Jones. (Called Jones a Guard But Maybe Tackle)

-------

Joe Thomas has been asked to give his opinion and do background reference work on Jack Conklin. He was asked to do background reference work on Kevin Stefanski by reaching out to past and present Vikings players. A lot of NFL people after the combine think Conklin to the Browns is going to happen. It's an odd choice in my mind based on how much help the Titans had to give Conklin and some of his deficiencies, but it does make sense regarding the high stakes of the season to get a sure-fire starting Tackle veteran that has some play quality in there to protect Baker and let the offense develop.

 

Edited by Mind Character

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@Mind Character I thought you have mentioned that the center and guards are the key movers in a ZBS.  Also I know you are not high on Nick Harris because of previous injuries but if he was there in round 4 would you consider him to sit behind J.C. Tretter for a year and be groomed into the position?

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I'd probably go with Wills if he's there, as I think he has a relatively high ceiling and a relatively high floor. I don't think he'll be available at #10 though, and I'd honestly be happy with any of the top four OTs. 

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29 minutes ago, Horseunit said:

@Mind Character I thought you have mentioned that the center and guards are the key movers in a ZBS.  Also I know you are not high on Nick Harris because of previous injuries but if he was there in round 4 would you consider him to sit behind J.C. Tretter for a year and be groomed into the position?

Guards and Center are indeed the most important positions in a wide-variety of ZBS schemes as they have to cover the most ground and make the most critical blocking decisions.

Nick Harris is a good player, but without a 5th round pick this year our 4th rounder needs to be used on gamble for a starter. With J.C. under a new contract, I don't see Nick Harris starting any time soon.

Also, I think the quality of starting-caliber WRs, RBs, NCBs, LBs, and potentially Safety would be more impactful for the Browns instead of drafting a Center.

Maybe if we picked up an additional 4th or something, but ultimately I don't see Harris as a game changing Center like that imho and I honestly like a guy currently on our roster named Willie Wright who's tape last year out of Tulsa looked like a future potential pro-bowl Center. He was one of my favorite sleepers in the draft and we got him as a UDFA. I'd rather keep developing him rather than spend a 4th on Harris.

But then again what do I know. Harris will probably go on to be a first year all pro for some team.

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I cool with all of them, just fix the OL and coach ‘em up.

They all have traits that are appealing.

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Are we still trying to take Joe Thomas's word on prospects?

I thought we learned that lesson.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, ditchdigger said:

Are we still trying to take Joe Thomas's word on prospects?

I thought we learned that lesson.

On Tackles or OLineman drafted he's never missed.

Also, nicely intimates when guys aren't holding up their end in terms of commitment (Desmond Harrison and Greg Robinson).

Edited by Mind Character

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6 hours ago, ditchdigger said:

Are we still trying to take Joe Thomas's word on prospects?

I thought we learned that lesson.

He was right about corbet 100% he knows what he takes to be an olinemen. 

 

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7 hours ago, ditchdigger said:

Are we still trying to take Joe Thomas's word on prospects?

I thought we learned that lesson.

Here here

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