LionArkie Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Karnage84 said: Hours upon hours of film study? No, I think you misunderstood what I was asking. I was wondering if pff had some sort of metric for run blocking they used. I'm being very basic here, but total number of touchdowns ran to the right. Or do they offer only a run blocking grade? do they offer a run blocking grade? it seems like all of the argument is based on his pff scores so I was just wondering and am not familiar with pff overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sllim Pickens Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, Karnage84 said: Are you arguing for keeping Wagner? Not at all. But it counters his argument. If we were to keep Wagner, we would have got similar production for $10M a year less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnage84 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 1 minute ago, LionArkie said: No, I think you misunderstood what I was asking. I was wondering if pff had some sort of metric for run blocking they used. I'm being very basic here, but total number of touchdowns ran to the right. Or do they offer only a run blocking grade? do they offer a run blocking grade? it seems like all of the argument is based on his pff scores so I was just wondering and am not familiar with pff overall. They have their own formula that I think is proprietary. They have guys who are watching every play of every player and then charting it based on whatever the set criteria is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnage84 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Soooo.... this might not make some of us feel all that great. However, it is what it is. In games where Vaitai played 50+snaps (Week 11 - Week 17 less Week 13) and primarily on right hand side (RG, RT + TE), he has an average grade of 65.9 with Pass grade of 60.90 and run block grade of 66.0. His worst game came against the Giants (division rival) and New England. He had a solid game against Seattle with a 75.6 overall in that game. His best score in this stretch was 78.8 run block grade vs Dallas. On the positive side, none of these scores are worse than any of Wagner's and his overall is still considerably better with a 13% difference in the run block side. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winitall Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Obvious caveats about player preferences in location apply, but the Lions are paying Vaitai, Williams, and Collins $25 million APY. Cory Littleton and Conklin are getting $26 million APY. They signed 3 very meh players so far when they could have gone after some actual difference makers. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnage84 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 1 minute ago, winitall said: Obvious caveats about player preferences in location apply, but the Lions are paying Vaitai, Williams, and Collins $25 million APY. Cory Littleton and Conklin are getting $26 million APY. They signed 3 very meh players so far when they could have gone after some actual difference makers. The players have to want to go there. We might be seeing the effects of this "playoffs or bust" mandate. Hard to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionArkie Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 29 minutes ago, Karnage84 said: They have their own formula that I think is proprietary. They have guys who are watching every play of every player and then charting it based on whatever the set criteria is. Ok, now in your opinion, is a slightly worse RT in pass protection, but a significantly better run blocking RT worth the increase of salary over what we had last year with our current roster? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnage84 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, LionArkie said: Ok, now in your opinion, is a slightly worse RT in pass protection, but a significantly better run blocking RT worth the increase of salary over what we had last year with our current roster? The thing is, he's not actually worse than Wagner. He's the same/better in pass protection than Wagner (marginally), while he's a significant improvement over Wagner in the run game. He's nearly 27 years old and his average is $10M/year while Wagner was earning $11.9M at 30 years old. So basically, he's younger, same at pass protection, way better in run blocking and is slightly cheaper APY. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sllim Pickens Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 9 minutes ago, Karnage84 said: The players have to want to go there. We might be seeing the effects of this "playoffs or bust" mandate. Hard to say. I agree, but its been longer than just this year. There is a culture of losing here, a history of it and its hard to turn things around when you overpay average players. I'd rather overpay good players to come, and hope you do better in the draft/low end guys to fill in the holes. Which I guess sounds like the New England way. We are not a destination for free agents, but to be fair, the Patriots werent either prior to the B/B era. The bad part of the 25M we spent is that two of htme have big contracts for long periods of time, and one of those is system specific (as is our big ticket item from last year). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionArkie Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Fair enough. I guess I missed how he is slightly better when I was looking at the data. I was looking at the % and it seemed he had higher % on everything or almost the same on some. I must have interpreted it wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnage84 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Just now, Sllim Pickens said: I agree, but its been longer than just this year. There is a culture of losing here, a history of it and its hard to turn things around when you overpay average players. I'd rather overpay good players to come, and hope you do better in the draft/low end guys to fill in the holes. Which I guess sounds like the New England way. We are not a destination for free agents, but to be fair, the Patriots werent either prior to the B/B era. The bad part of the 25M we spent is that two of htme have big contracts for long periods of time, and one of those is system specific (as is our big ticket item from last year). Those are all fair points. However, you can't operate scared. Patricia and Quinn have to go into this being confident that they can/will get the job done. Otherwise you just quit and let someone else take it over. Now, if they trade away #3 overall for pennies on the dollar and/or use future assets that hurt us down the road... then yeah, it could be a problem. I agree completely though, this is a team that has a losing history. It's tough to get guys to come here without overpaying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnage84 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, LionArkie said: Fair enough. I guess I missed how he is slightly better when I was looking at the data. I was looking at the % and it seemed he had higher % on everything or almost the same on some. I must have interpreted it wrong. There's the pressures/hits/sacks numbers... which are all fairly in line with Wagner + the actual PFF scores Overall, Pass and Run. It's a lot of numbers, so honestly... I get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lions017 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Eh. I don't understand this. To me it feels like there's a very high probability that we paid a good amount for an unproven, likely average player. Hopefully he steps up in a starting role. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionArkie Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 9 minutes ago, Karnage84 said: The thing is, he's not actually worse than Wagner. He's the same/better in pass protection than Wagner (marginally), while he's a significant improvement over Wagner in the run game. He's nearly 27 years old and his average is $10M/year while Wagner was earning $11.9M at 30 years old. So basically, he's younger, same at pass protection, way better in run blocking and is slightly cheaper APY. Wait Wait Wait...I'm calling a time out... Weren't you the one saying you had to include Wagner's wage as well that Sllim was arguing against, lol? If that's the case you are ultimately paying V 15 million vs 11.9 million. If that's the case does it still hold true for you? I'm not trying to trap you or anything, just interested in your thoughts on the overall investment and if it is in the right direction and want to make sure the logic is consistent throught the whole thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sllim Pickens Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 5 minutes ago, LionArkie said: Wait Wait Wait...I'm calling a time out... Weren't you the one saying you had to include Wagner's wage as well that Sllim was arguing against, lol? If that's the case you are ultimately paying V 15 million vs 11.9 million. If that's the case does it still hold true for you? I'm not trying to trap you or anything, just interested in your thoughts on the overall investment and if it is in the right direction and want to make sure the logic is consistent throught the whole thing. I dont like using one in the other, but if we kept Wagner, it would have only cost 5M more so we in essence would have saved $5M by sticking with Wagner. I feel like the slight dip in pass pro vs the increase in run blocking to slightly above average is not worth the extra $5M a year. If we are going to spend on a RT, go all out or give a prove it deal and see what Crosby can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.