Vikings trade WR Diggs to Bills

[Ozzy]

16 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

I keep seeing this criticism of Cousins every year, and every year Cousins is statistically the best or one of the best at bootleg action.

He is successful because the Vikings have one of the best running backs if not the best running back in the NFL.   Of course he will draw attention and make any play action usually work.  And the fact he is playing with one of the best route runners in the NFL helps as well, and Jefferson is not far off either.   I would be far more afraid of a guy who can bootleg and actually be effective as a runner.  Kirk Cousins is not dangerous as a runner.  Ideally for me with that play the QB can run or the RB, it works better that way.  But go ahead and take Kirk Cousins as a QB now and long term over Josh Allen, I would never do that.  Pretend all you want athletic ability and ability to gain yards as a QB does not great matter in the effectiveness of that play.  Josh Allen not only is a better runner but throws better on the run and can throw if farther down field on the move. Josh Allen has almost 300 yards rusher and 5 TDs, that does not matter in the effectiveness of a play action pass especially a bootleg?  Maybe he needs to work on his fundamentals a little more but still he is a threat to run and throw, Kirk is not.    

Fact is Kirk has yet to win a game by himself when they cannot run the ball or the defense is playing poorly.  It sucks but if one of those two things are not going well they will not win the game regardless how good Kirk Cousins plays.  That is not what you pay him $40 a year for, to be a supporting player instead of the best player but whatever he has been good this second half of the season because those around him have been better, run game is awesome and defense is improving.  

[JDBrocks]

All of that writing and Kirk Cousins still has better bootleg numbers than Josh Allen 🤷‍♂️
 

I mean he has better advanced metrics across the board.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, JDBrocks said:

All of that writing and Kirk Cousins still has better bootleg numbers than Josh Allen 🤷‍♂️
 

I mean he has better advanced metrics across the board.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."  Mark Twain

[Ozzy]

2 hours ago, JDBrocks said:

All of that writing and Kirk Cousins still has better bootleg numbers than Josh Allen 🤷‍♂️
 

I mean he has better advanced metrics across the board.

Go read PFF and take it as football bible, go right ahead.  PS what you are reading were 2019 statistics I assume unless you are a paid subscriber.  Again they have arguably the best RB in the NFL and two of the better route runners at receiver.  I sure hope they are successful with plays the offense is basically built around.  If not maybe they should change offenses, it is only an absolute staple of the Shanahan run game and zone blocking schemes typically.

Go ahead and take Kirk Cousins, I will take Josh Allen thank you very much.  

[JDBrocks]

I didn’t say anything of the sort. You’re just wrong about Josh Allen being a better bootleg QB. I don’t know how many years Cousins has to continue to be the best or one of the best at this very specific skill before you just acknowledge it and move forward.

Cousins can be incredibly good at bootlegs and still not be a great QB or the QB a team would prefer to have leading them.

anyhow, this is a thread about Diggs, and he’s still awesome. I’m glad he’s having success in Buffalo. I was, with much evidence in this thread, incredibly unhappy about the decision.

Edited November 27, 2020 by JDBrocks

[JDBrocks]

1 hour ago, Virginia Viking said:

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."  Mark Twain

I’m not sure what you are implying here. It’s not debatable that Cousins is and has been incredibly good at play action and bootleg passing.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

I’m not sure what you are implying here. It’s not debatable that Cousins is and has been incredibly good at play action and bootleg passing.

He's good.  I don't know about "incredibly good."  Why I quoted Twain there is your use of the term "advanced metrics," which is another term for statistical analysis.  I think sometimes people get so enamored with what the numbers say, that they lose sight of what their own eyes are telling them.  I am not suggesting you are like that...at all.  Just trying to reflect a belief that I have that good or even great statistics sometimes are undone by a single mistake.

[SemperFeist]

Imagine the surprise when some come to the realization that play action and the bootleg aren’t plays designed for the QB to run. 

[SemperFeist]

1 minute ago, Virginia Viking said:

He's good.  I don't know about "incredibly good."  Why I quoted Twain there is your use of the term "advanced metrics," which is another term for statistical analysis.  I think sometimes people get so enamored with what the numbers say, that they lose sight of what their own eyes are telling them.  I am not suggesting you are like that...at all.  Just trying to reflect a belief that I have that good or even great statistics sometimes are undone by a single mistake.

If your eyes don’t tell you that Cousins excels at play action and the bootleg, I’d suggest finding a good optometrist. 

[JDBrocks]

1 hour ago, Virginia Viking said:

He's good.  I don't know about "incredibly good."  Why I quoted Twain there is your use of the term "advanced metrics," which is another term for statistical analysis.  I think sometimes people get so enamored with what the numbers say, that they lose sight of what their own eyes are telling them.  I am not suggesting you are like that...at all.  Just trying to reflect a belief that I have that good or even great statistics sometimes are undone by a single mistake.

He’s incredibly good. The numbers support what you see on the field. Most of the Vikings explosive plays come from play action. When Diggs and Cousins went on that tear last year it was mostly based on play action and bootleg deep shots. If you recall, the Packers were the ones that did a great job defending and eliminating that part of the game last year, with the backside DE to spy Cousins and often unblocked on those naked boots that were killing other teams last year.

Edited November 27, 2020 by JDBrocks

[Cearbhall]

Count me as one that thinks a QB that was more athletic than Cousins would make a much better bootleg QB. It is almost a requirement of the job in the current NFL. The days of the pocket passer look to be gone. Brady and Brees are still going, but any QB coming into the league needs to have athleticism IMO. Cousins simply is not good enough to make up for his lack of ability to escape and/or run.

I am not sure what this all means for Diggs. He seemed to do well with both Kirk Cousins and with Josh Allen. For now he does seem happier with Allen. I am not sure that is QB or the coach/scheme.

 

[JDBrocks]

22 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

Count me as one that thinks a QB that was more athletic than Cousins would make a much better bootleg QB. It is almost a requirement of the job in the current NFL. The days of the pocket passer look to be gone. Brady and Brees are still going, but any QB coming into the league needs to have athleticism IMO. Cousins simply is not good enough to make up for his lack of ability to escape and/or run.

I am not sure what this all means for Diggs. He seemed to do well with both Kirk Cousins and with Josh Allen. For now he does seem happier with Allen. I am not sure that is QB or the coach/scheme.

 

But play action and bootleg plays are not designed for QBs to be runners if the play is working.... And is also why more athletic QBs haven’t been better than Cousins going on like 5 seasons now.

I too would prefer a more athletic QB that can improvise when the play breaks down. That’s not what a play action or bootleg play is about though. It’s actually more beneficial to less athletic QBs because it creates extra time for long developing routes.

Edited November 27, 2020 by JDBrocks

[SemperFeist]

39 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

I am not sure that is QB or the coach/scheme.

I’m going with more of the former. Diggs didn’t seem to have an issue with Cousins in DeFilippo’s scheme when he was being targeted 150 times. 

[Ozzy]

28 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

Count me as one that thinks a QB that was more athletic than Cousins would make a much better bootleg QB. It is almost a requirement of the job in the current NFL. The days of the pocket passer look to be gone. Brady and Brees are still going, but any QB coming into the league needs to have athleticism IMO. Cousins simply is not good enough to make up for his lack of ability to escape and/or run.

I am not sure what this all means for Diggs. He seemed to do well with both Kirk Cousins and with Josh Allen. For now he does seem happier with Allen. I am not sure that is QB or the coach/scheme.

 

Good point, having an athletic QB to get out of pressure and to make defense blitz you less because they are afraid of getting ran by is a awesome thing to have.  Sure Kirk does a decent job with it but teams know if you pressure him and collapse the pocket he will go down and he will not get out of it, or he will make a poor throw.  Having guys who can throw and move better is better all the way around.  Makes the offense easier to run, makes it easier most of the time for the offensive line to protect and makes any play action pass more dangerous because there is more the defense has to worry about.  

 

PS the Vikings are 70% under center in the NFL, the highest by far.  So I damn hope that QB is up there in play action passing because they run the I-formation or split or single back more than any team in the league.  It was 70% under center in 2019 and 2020 it has been 65%, both league highs.  If Josh Allen had that, he would get a ton of yards rushing off bootlegs and way more yards with his play action passing.  The Baltimore Ravens for example one of the better run teams in 2019, well one of the best in league history, not so much this year with the changes on the OL and TE stuff, they are 97% shotgun in 2020.  You cannot run a bootleg off a shotgun formation.  Also Arizona are 93% from the shotgun as well so both teams are far more zone read which is not really play action passing and not considered as such, thus not in the stats I assume as the same thing.

 

By the way Pittsburgh for example is under center 21% of the plays yet run out of it 86% of the time which is number 1 in the league.  Vikings are under center 70% of the time and run out of it 66% of the time so they simply are in that situation far more often than most other NFL teams so it is harder for the defense to know what they are doing when under center.  

[SemperFeist]

3 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Makes the offense easier to run, makes it easier most of the time for the offensive line to protect and makes any play action pass more dangerous because there is more the defense has to worry about. 

This is just false. A quarterback running around throws off the timing of the offense. Running quarterbacks actually make the job of offensive linemen more difficult. Why do you think mobile QBs constantly are at the top of times sacked? And a running QB doesn’t make play action more dangerous. Quite the opposite, actually.