lions sign Chase Daniel

[Karnage84]

1 minute ago, LionArkie said:

I saw it as the Fords trying to pacify the fans.  If there is reason/excuse it will be granted.  For instance, the GB game last year wouldn't be counted against them.  Then the injuries, not their fault.  I feel it will happen, and the excuse will be accepted. I think Martha will let BQ and MP be here for 5 years unless something awful like last season happens.

I mean... you can't hold it against them that we all got robbed in a game like that GB game. The league acknowledged that afterwards. It's the NFL, the margins are going to be tight. 

They've taken the floor out of the argument of a poor record if Stafford goes down. Daniels eliminates that excuse. 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

Absolutely.

[LionArkie]

15 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

I mean... you can't hold it against them that we all got robbed in a game like that GB game. The league acknowledged that afterwards. It's the NFL, the margins are going to be tight. 

They've taken the floor out of the argument of a poor record if Stafford goes down. Daniels eliminates that excuse. 

I don't hold anything against them.  I've said multiple times I don't like these two guys, and I haven't from the beginning, but I want stability in the front office and at coach.  I want to see what they can do in that 5th year. and I'm not counting Quinn's first two with Caldwell.  So, here we are in year 3, and at a pivotal point for me as a fan.  So far in FA, I'm not seeing it this year.  I saw nothing in the D to make me think we are trending in the right direction.  The offense looked great until Stafford got hurt and I'm sorry, but I don't buy your statement in bold.  Daniels is no Stafford and I don't think this team will win much if he is asked to carry the burden as Stafford has had to do.  Furthermore, Quinn has been building the run, or trying to and I don't see much improvement. mainly due to injured Kerryon, but didn't he have injuries coming out of college and we took him anyways?  I'm just not sold on these two, yet I want to see what they can do and not have that "what if" thought in the back of my head.  Also, I don't trust the Ford's could replace them with anyone better.

Edited March 17, 2020 by LionArkie

[Karnage84]

1 minute ago, LionArkie said:

I don't hold anything against them.  I've said multiple times I don't like these two guys, and I haven't from the beginning, but I want stability in the front office and at coach.  I want to see what they can do in that 5th year. and I'm not counting Quinn's first two with Caldwell.  So, here we are in year 3, and at a pivotal point for me as a fan.  So far in FA, I'm not seeing it this year.  I saw nothing in the D to make me think we are trending in the right direction.  The offense looked great until Stafford got hurt and I'm sorry, but I don't by your statement in bold.  Daniels is no Stafford and I don't think this team will win much if he is asked to carry the burden as Stafford has had to do.  Furthermore, Quinn has been building the run, or trying to and I don't see much improvement. mainly due to injured Kerryon, but didn't he have injuries coming out of college and we took him anyways?  I'm just not sold on these two, yet I want to see what they can do and not have that what if though in the back of my head.  Also, I don't trust the Ford's could replace them with anyone better.

Daniels isn't Stafford just as much as he isn't Driskell or Blough. He's a veteran back up. He's started and won games in this league (as we all know, all too well). Let's say that we're 4 games into the season and we're 3-1. Stafford goes down. Daniel not winning 12 games is not going to help these guys keep their job. I don't even think Daniels going 3-9 is going to do it. If Daniels goes 5-7, we're still looking at 8-8. That to me is more of a reasonable ask when you have a veteran back up. Anything less than that on a Stafford-less team is really not acceptable WITH a veteran back up. There's more of a stomach for that when you're dealing with a 3rd string UDFA QB as your starter.

[LionArkie]

2 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Daniels isn't Stafford just as much as he isn't Driskell or Blough. He's a veteran back up. He's started and won games in this league (as we all know, all too well). Let's say that we're 4 games into the season and we're 3-1. Stafford goes down. Daniel not winning 12 games is not going to help these guys keep their job. I don't even think Daniels going 3-9 is going to do it. If Daniels goes 5-7, we're still looking at 8-8. That to me is more of a reasonable ask when you have a veteran back up. Anything less than that on a Stafford-less team is really not acceptable WITH a veteran back up. There's more of a stomach for that when you're dealing with a 3rd string UDFA QB as your starter.

Fair point. I still don't see this team winning 5 games with him and that's if he has all 16 to play in.  At this moment, we don't have a defense, and in my mind, you and TL will probably disagree, we have no OL.  At best our running game is average. At best.  I just don't see us winning 5 games with him and I think it would give another reason/excuse. Build the offensive line and make it good, and focus on the running game by drafting a quality running back or invest much more into the D and I may change my mind. Still a long offseason left, but right now, I'm not seeing it.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

Yeah, I understand all of that.

I have a hard time being negative the moment news is released. I view it this way: both Quinn and Patricia have been successful throughout their careers. They clearly aren't ignorant people. I can guarantee that they've spent months as an organization watching film and scouting players with the goal to make this team successful. We all knew that Wagner was on a (steep) decline, and some have admitted that they don't know much about Vaitai. The moment the news is released, there's a downpour of negativity from Lions' fans: some think he has only 4 career starts, while others think that he has been bad each time he stepped onto the football field. These statements, quite simply, aren't true. Why do we want to approach the team this way?

Instead, why don't we try to see it from their perspective? What does Vaitai give this roster? Significantly better run blocking. They've tried to build a rushing attack for years and it simply hasn't happened, but Vaitai looks like a good step in that direction. Is he a polished pass protector? Of course not. That being said, teams often use versatile TEs to chip at the line of scrimmage, and we just so happen to have a versatile TE on the roster. It seems that Hockenson could help in pass protection, giving us a substantial upgrade at the position. That sounds like it makes a lot of sense.

I can see us either signing a FA RB (Freeman comes to mind) or drafting a RB in rounds 3-4. Either way, there may be nothing that helps this team - and especially Stafford - more than a strong running game. If that's their mentality, I think it makes a lot of sense.

I think the thing that hurts organizations the most is constant front office turnover. We need to let Quinn and Patricia see this thing through.

[Karnage84]

2 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

Fair point. I still don't see this team winning 5 games with him and that's if he has all 16 to play in.  At this moment, we don't have a defense, and in my mind, you and TL will probably disagree, we have no OL.  At best our running game is average. At best.  I just don't see us winning 5 games with him and I think it would give another reason/excuse. Build the offensive line and make it good, and focus on the running game by drafting a quality running back or invest much more into the D and I may change my mind. Still a long offseason left, but right now, I'm not seeing it.

No OL is probably overkill... Decker is an above average LT, Ragnow is a PB caliber OC. Dahl is a servicable-average starting OG. We've signed a young RT with some promise. He's the best of what's available for what they want at the position. Sometimes it's more about timing than anything else. 

[LionArkie]

5 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Yeah, I understand all of that.

I have a hard time being negative the moment news is released. I view it this way: both Quinn and Patricia have been successful throughout their careers. They clearly aren't ignorant people. I can guarantee that they've spent months as an organization watching film and scouting players with the goal to make this team successful. We all knew that Wagner was on a (steep) decline, and some have admitted that they don't know much about Vaitai. The moment the news is released, there's a downpour of negativity from Lions' fans: some think he has only 4 career starts, while others think that he has been bad each time he stepped onto the football field. These statements, quite simply, aren't true. Why do we want to approach the team this way?

Instead, why don't we try to see it from their perspective? What does Vaitai give this roster? Significantly better run blocking. They've tried to build a rushing attack for years and it simply hasn't happened, but Vaitai looks like a good step in that direction. Is he a polished pass protector? Of course not. That being said, teams often use versatile TEs to chip at the line of scrimmage, and we just so happen to have a versatile TE on the roster. It seems that Hockenson could help in pass protection, giving us a substantial upgrade at the position. That sounds like it makes a lot of sense.

I can see us either signing a FA RB (Freeman comes to mind) or drafting a RB in rounds 3-4. Either way, there may be nothing that helps this team - and especially Stafford - more than a strong running game. If that's their mentality, I think it makes a lot of sense.

I think the thing that hurts organizations the most is constant front office turnover. We need to let Quinn and Patricia see this thing through.

I admit I knew nothing of Vaitai, hell, I have to look up his name every time I spell it.  For me and I think others the issue is not trying him out.  It's the amount of money to try him out.  I don't like it now, but by all means I hope I'm wrong.  That first year Quinn looked like a genius with his signings to make the defense do what it did after his trades.  Last year, not so much.  So in year 3 we will get a better idea of which Quinn is the real one. The genius of year 1 with Patricia, or the failed one of last year that the rest of the league figured out.  Now sure, I know injuries had a lot to do with last year, and I do believe they intentionally tanked by doing what they did on the roster (I know, not a popular idea on this forum), but I'm not sold.  When Quinn and MP start winning, a lot of these initial reactions will subside.

[LionArkie]

6 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

No OL is probably overkill... Decker is an above average LT, Ragnow is a PB caliber OC. Dahl is a servicable-average starting OG. We've signed a young RT with some promise. He's the best of what's available for what they want at the position. Sometimes it's more about timing than anything else. 

Maybe you're right, however, I'm in wait and see mode with a side of pessimism.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

2 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

When Quinn and MP start winning, a lot of these initial reactions will subside.

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I just think there's a lot more to it than that.

If you read back through the GDTs from last season (I did), you'll see the majority of fans throwing their full support behind Quinn and Patricia through the first 6 weeks of the season. Once Stafford went down, that changed completely. A lot of teams in this league would struggle without their starting QB, and scraping together 7 wins doesn't help your franchise in the long run. Ultimately, we're only in position to land an elite prospect because we didn't win when the season was lost.

[LionArkie]

6 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I just think there's a lot more to it than that.

If you read back through the GDTs from last season (I did), you'll see the majority of fans throwing their full support behind Quinn and Patricia through the first 6 weeks of the season. Once Stafford went down, that changed completely. A lot of teams in this league would struggle without their starting QB, and scraping together 7 wins doesn't help your franchise in the long run. Ultimately, we're only in position to land an elite prospect because we didn't win when the season was lost.

I remember that. I never really did understand the change of heart outside of "this team always loses and they got me again".  I think we should remember too the DL was obliterated during the beginning of the season.  If I remember right, and I'm not going to look it up, Hand was out, Snacks held out and came in out of shape, Flowers was on the mend and missed all of training camp, and it seemed like there were a few other issues. By the time they were healed up, the tank began as Stafford was out.

Edited March 17, 2020 by LionArkie

[LionArkie]

I swear I need an editor when I post.

 

[diehardlionfan]

1 hour ago, Karnage84 said:

 

Now that we aren't dealing with the Jeff Driskell's/David Blough's of the world at back-up, I think there is a lot less wiggle room. We likely would have won 9-10 games last year with a healthy Stafford. We won 3. If Stafford does go down, you can't really make the same argument because Daniel is a vet guy. He should be able to help you win games when the rest of the team isn't terrible. Even if Stafford does go down, they're going to have to win 7 - 8 games minimum plus have other stuff happen to justify another year.

Likely, could of, should of doesn’t really mean anything does it.

Its why they play the games. 

I like the signing though. It will be great to have an effective back up on the roster.

[Karnage84]

1 minute ago, LionArkie said:

I remember that. I never really did understand the change of heart outside of this team always loses and they got me again.  I think we should remember too the DL was obliterated during the beginning of the season.  If I remember right, and I'm not going to look it up, Hand was out, Snacks held out and came in out of shape, Flowers was on the mend and missed all of training camp, and it seemed like there were a few other issues. By the time they were mending, the tank began as Stafford was out.

We were also relying on the DL to be a strength of the defense... then to your point, the bottom fell out with the injuries and the like. Snacks held out, had a baby and was far from the guy in 2018. Injuries took their toll right from day 1. 

Every team has to deal with injuries but we also can't disregard the extent that they played on the season. 

[Karnage84]

1 minute ago, diehardlionfan said:

Likely, could of, should of doesn’t really mean anything does it.

Its why they play the games. 

I like the signing though. It will be great to have an effective back up on the roster.

You make me chuckle. There's a part of me that hopes I am not as beaten down when I'm your age after a lifetime of the Lions being Lions. Then I remember that I cheer for the Lions.

When that time comes, I'm going to lean in hard on it.