Free Agent Frenzy

[BroncoBruin]

I don’t see the benefit of signing bad players so they can be bad until you think your rookie WR is ready. No need to waste time on players who’ve had 4-5 years to prove they can’t help your team. Empower your youth. 

If we’re talking about Anderson/Perriman, that’s a different conversation. Some horrible player like Dorsett being brought in so you can say you have a “vet” helps nobody. 

Edited March 31, 2020 by BroncoBruin

[BroncosFan2010]

Dorsett isnt horrible as a WR4 / WR5 and insurance piece. The idea is to hedge your bets so you have backup options if the WR we take at 1.15 becomes Laquan Treadwell, or to have additional talent on the table to avoid forcing a WR pick when the value isnt there. 

Higgins is going to get the vet min and would be great insurance, not to mention provide surprising upside at 25 IMO. Having WR4 / 5's that excel in ST is great, but I have also always like the idea of a vertical burner deep on the bench and Higgins has shown the ability to make some nice plays downfield. Higgins as that guy and Patrick as the WR/ST talent seems like a pretty ideal deep WR stable IMO. 

[AKRNA]

I think the WR learning curve is a great argument for drafting one of the top 3 this year. Give 'em a year learning the system with all our other young offensive talent looking forward to a breakout year in 2021.

We've already got under performing draft picks on the roster. Let's see if one or two step it up this year. 

[BroncoBruin]

51 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

Dorsett isnt horrible as a WR4 / WR5 and insurance piece. The idea is to hedge your bets so you have backup options if the WR we take at 1.15 becomes Laquan Treadwell, or to have additional talent on the table to avoid forcing a WR pick when the value isnt there. 

Higgins is going to get the vet min and would be great insurance, not to mention provide surprising upside at 25 IMO. Having WR4 / 5's that excel in ST is great, but I have also always like the idea of a vertical burner deep on the bench and Higgins has shown the ability to make some nice plays downfield. Higgins as that guy and Patrick as the WR/ST talent seems like a pretty ideal deep WR stable IMO. 

Dorsett isn't a hedge. He's a bad player and the offense will be bad if it has to rely on him in any way. Much like a stop gap veteran QB, it does nothing but waste time and delay progress. Just go all in with your guys. We all agree 2020 isn't a realistic year to compete, I don't need the minuscule contributions of veteran bubble players keeping my young talent off the field. Hamilton and Patrick have enough experience. 

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

Dorsett isn't a hedge. He's a bad player and the offense will be bad if it has to rely on him in any way. Much like a stop gap veteran QB, it does nothing but waste time and delay progress. Just go all in with your guys. We all agree 2020 isn't a realistic year to compete, I don't need the minuscule contributions of veteran bubble players keeping my young talent off the field. Hamilton and Patrick have enough experience. 

I get this thinking, but I am arguing that having a stopgap is good as it doesn't force draft reaches IMO. If we are sitting at 1.15 and Wirfs, Thomas or Willis are available as well as one or more of the top WR talents, I would prefer to go OL and wait until R2 for WR (Especially with Thomas, who has the makings of an All Pro OG and could start right away). Then lets say R2 rolls around and Patrick Queen has fallen (Or even Winfield at S, who I am extremely high on). You have to take him over someone like Aiyuk IMO. 

So we get elite or near elite talents but still need a WR, but the need is mitigated by the fact we sign someone like Dorsett or Higgins as a stopgap guy. 

Just my opinion. We are not a WR away from competing, we need to add talent all across the board. 

Edited March 31, 2020 by BroncosFan2010

[jsthomp2007]

On 3/25/2020 at 1:06 PM, Broncofan said:

Dorsett signed a 1-year / 1M deal too.  A guy like Sharpe, Higgins, Dorsett all would fit the bill so cheaply.    Dorsett & Perriman (who was much more expensive, so I get it) offer the verticality that we lack. 

Again, to be clear we clearly should target WR with likely 1 of our top 2 picks, given the top-end talent that will be available (would not reach at 15 for anyone outside the top 3, though).  But the thought we only need to invest into 1 high-end rookie is questionable.  There is NO one on our roster that we can assume can be a WR2 - and a rookie being ready to help right away is a 1-2x a year event.     Even guys like Deebo Samuel and AJ Brown took a while to really take off - and they're already outliers for having a year 1 impact.   There are a ton of rookie WR's who end up being elite ceiling / top-tier guys...who don't make much an impact year 1.     Even Sutton's impact was tough to call him WR2 level.    

The draft is not how you improve present-year odds outside of Rd1.   If it happens, great.   But you cannot be banking on it, save for RB, and maybe ILB (but even then, it's not even close to the same as RB impact).   It's why I truly don't see our legit window for sustained contention to open until 2021, even assuming Lock progresses, and our youth core advances.   We're headed in the right way, but the holes our roster has post-FA now, and likely still even after the bargain basement / roster cuts providing choices, just has us at that better-but-not-contender stage.   Then again, we still have a lot more hope than last year, and it's refreshing not to have to worry about what QB Elway is targeting this offseason (succeed or fail, it's Lock's team for likely 2020 & entering 2021).  

Side note - the draft going on schedule is a terrible move by the NFL.   Draft guys not doing full workouts, and no interviews/visits - man, there's going to be a TON of variation on player valuation this draft.   The NFL should delay the draft 4-6 weeks - it's not like there's a realistic hope OTA's will be happening as scheduled, or that players will be in the same conditioning/readiness then anyways.   SMH.

I think Elway should go out and trade for a WR.  Why he didn't nap Nuk when he could, I don't know why.  But I am sure there is a WR out there available that he can use a 3rd rounder on.  I do not know who that might be, perhaps like a Devante Adams? 

[broncos67]

17 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

I get this thinking, but I am arguing that having a stopgap is good as it doesn't force draft reaches IMO. If we are sitting at 1.15 and Wirfs, Thomas or Willis are available as well as one or more of the top WR talents, I would prefer to go OL and wait until R2 for WR (Especially with Thomas, who has the makings of an All Pro OG and could start right away). Then lets say R2 rolls around and Patrick Queen has fallen (Or even Winfield at S, who I am extremely high on). You have to take him over someone like Aiyuk IMO. 

So we get elite or near elite talents but still need a WR, but the need is mitigated by the fact we sign someone like Dorsett or Higgins as a stopgap guy. 

Just my opinion. We are not a WR away from competing, we need to add talent all across the board. 

I don't disagree, but Denver needs to go out and get impact contributors at some point. They have a QB on a cheap deal, now is the time to go for it.

[Broncofan]

38 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said:

Dorsett isn't a hedge. He's a bad player and the offense will be bad if it has to rely on him in any way. Much like a stop gap veteran QB, it does nothing but waste time and delay progress. Just go all in with your guys. We all agree 2020 isn't a realistic year to compete, I don't need the minuscule contributions of veteran bubble players keeping my young talent off the field. Hamilton and Patrick have enough experience. 

Dorsett is a failed Rd1 pick that should have never gone as high as he did, and not by IND over OL for sure.    FTR, though, he's actually a decent deep threat who also gets separation, and doesn't drop balls thrown his way.   But he's also not a long-term solution, either.   He'd fit a role cheaply, and likely more readily until a rookie can take the training wheels off. 

https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/phillip-dorsett/ - 14.7 yards target distance (15th) 1.92 yards of separation (13th), drop rate 98%, QBR when target of 100+ (32nd).   He got hurt (which is also a factor) and missed games, and at the end when he came back - Brady was a shell of his usual self.   It doesn't mean he's a star, but for what we were looking for - he actually fit the bill very cheaply.   

And having watched the NE games, the tape last year fit the metrics above.  Now he's too small to be a 50-50 guy, and he's not durable / strong enough to be a true X/Y guy.   So he's an outside threat, but he happens to get separation and has the hands and ability to track deep balls.   For a Rd1 pick, that's a TERRIBLE outcome - but that's not the question here.    For what we were looking for, he fit what we needed (so did Anderson & Perriman, but obviously at much more cost).

It's a moot point, but the label of Rd1 bust tends to leave ppl with a bad taste.   Dorsett was a bust in IND, no argument.   But that label ignores the fact Dorsett's actually become a useful player as a deep threat.   Moving on....

Edited March 31, 2020 by Broncofan

[1234567]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28975907/bengals-cut-former-first-round-pick-dre-kirkpatrick

Looks like Dre Kirkpatrick is now available. Depending on how severe that knee injury was, do you think he would be a decent fit in Fangio's system? He seemed to wane over the last couple of years in Cincy, but I wonder how much of that is attributed to being tired of being on a historically inept team. Also, what would he cost? 

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

I don't disagree, but Denver needs to go out and get impact contributors at some point. They have a QB on a cheap deal, now is the time to go for it.

 

I agree. But I think Andrew Thomas can be as impactful as a WR. He has Brandon Scherff talent at OG IMO. He could be an All Pro by year 2. 

[BroncoBruin]

The depth of the WR class makes it special, but it’s also heralded because it’s ELITE at the top. They’re a Shelby Harris deflection away from guaranteeing an elite WR prospect and plug-and-play #2 (and maybe eventual #1). They’re still in a great spot to bring in one of those guys if they want. All this resistance to going WR in the 1st is weird to me, this is the year to do it. They’re the top three WR prospects to come out in the past five years. 

I’m not interested in the 2nd round crop and I don’t see a lot of the guys discussed even being there at 46. I want one of the top 3. The board will favor Denver as there’s good LB, CB and OL depth well into Day 2. And I’m not worried about the Dorsetts of the world, who will always cycle on and off the scrap heap. Trust in your evaluation and get Lock his guys now. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

5 hours ago, Broncofan said:

For sure.   WR2, though, is a tall task.  And asking that for a rookie is a tall, tall order, even more so from Week 1.  Even the most impact year 1 rookies rarely were ready Opening Week - AJ Brown & Samuel were 2H terrors, but mostly ghosts in 1H.   That's why I keep pointing out that we have to stop thinking the draft will address year 1 needs.   Rd1 guys have the talent, but WR is a tough position to impact right away - one only needs to look at Sutton to see that in spades (again, bigger 2H impact there as well, and overall hard to say he gave us a solid WR2 year in a vacuum).   It's a big reason for why I see 2021+ as our legit window to contend, and why I argue against stop-gap signings unless it's vet-min, no-guaranteed $ type deals. 

Unless it's a young player entering or still in his prime, a player who has played his rookie contract and is on to his second, that could help us not only short-term but long-term.

Good teams have great depth. Elway, early during his tenure, once said, "you can't have enough good pass rushers, you can't have enough good corners..." and I think that applies to a lot of positions, especially positions that are deployed in multiples (like WRs) on every play. Sure, you only need one good QB, one good LT, one good FS, one good K, etc., but at the positions that used in multiples and have high injury frequency, you need depth.  I would have no problem if they signed a second contract WR with a fair amount of guaranteed money. We have Sutton. That's it. Signing Hollywood Higgins or Paul Richardson or someone of that ilk makes MOUNTAINS of sense right now, whether or not our window opens this year or next or the year after and whether or not we draft a WR at 15. 

Edited March 31, 2020 by AnAngryAmerican

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

whether or not our window opens this year or next or the year after and whether or not we draft a WR at 15. 

Exactly, we could land one of the top 3 guys and we would still need another WR. Even if we draft TWO guys, we could use another WR. For example:

WR1 - Courtland Sutton / Tim Patrick

WR2 - Henry Ruggs III (15) / Rashard Higgins

WR3 - DaeSean Hamilton / Chase Claypool (95)

That is the type of WR stable you want to give a young QB. 

[Broncofan]

1 hour ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Unless it's a young player entering or still in his prime, a player who has played his rookie contract and is on to his second, that could help us not only short-term but long-term.

Good teams have great depth. Elway, early during his tenure, once said, "you can't have enough good pass rushers, you can't have enough good corners..." and I think that applies to a lot of positions, especially positions that are deployed in multiples (like WRs) on every play. Sure, you only need one good QB, one good LT, one good FS, one good K, etc., but at the positions that used in multiples and have high injury frequency, you need depth.  I would have no problem if they signed a second contract WR with a fair amount of guaranteed money. We have Sutton. That's it. Signing Hollywood Higgins or Paul Richardson or someone of that ilk makes MOUNTAINS of sense right now, whether or not our window opens this year or next or the year after and whether or not we draft a WR at 15. 

Well that's not a stopgap signing though.  I'm not referring to the 1-year deal as the only criteria - stopgap was referring to the vet 1-year win-now deals.   We're on the same page on getting guys who can stay at peak levels of play later on. 

Honestly, in those cases, I'd want a 2nd year that's not guaranteed, just so we have options.    A few of those guys do 1-year prove-it deals hoping to win in next year's market, but usually if they are young, you can get a 2nd/3rd year, and if it's not guaranteed, even better.

Edited March 31, 2020 by Broncofan

[Broncofan]

1 hour ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

Exactly, we could land one of the top 3 guys and we would still need another WR. Even if we draft TWO guys, we could use another WR. For example:

WR1 - Courtland Sutton / Tim Patrick

WR2 - Henry Ruggs III (15) / Rashard Higgins

WR3 - DaeSean Hamilton / Chase Claypool (95)

That is the type of WR stable you want to give a young QB. 

Claypool isn't going past Rd2 IMO, he's got the Evan Engram comp giving massive helium to his draft stock (big body fast WR who masquerades as a move TE - in a really meh top end TE class)...but I agree with the concept.    Lynn Bowden baby (and it likely needs early Rd3)!

Edited March 31, 2020 by Broncofan