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RJ_11

Bears to trade 4th Round Pick to Jaguars for Nick Foles

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19 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

His OL had 4 All Pros on it.

He played 5 seasons in Philly.  2012-2014 and 2017-2018.  Which years did he have 4 All Pros and who were they?

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9 minutes ago, soulman said:

He played 5 seasons in Philly.  2012-2014 and 2017-2018.  Which years did he have 4 All Pros and who were they?

Peters, HOF and All Pro

Lane Johnson, All Pro

Brandon Brooks, All Pro

Jason Kelce, All Pro

 

Now those were not all in the same year. But he has 4 All Pro calibre OLmen on his line. 4 guys who are in the conversation for the best players at their positions.

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25 minutes ago, abstract_thought said:

Expected YAC does not normalize or even account for the quality of the throw.

If you have 2 identical plays and the only difference is a ball thrown on-target or a ball thrown off-target, the expected YAC is the same. But it's clear from watching football that the timing and quality of the throw significantly affects what the receiver can do after he catches the ball.

Expected YAC is once the ball is in their hands.

Mitch also is about average in what PFR considers bad throw %.

 

It is not just a QB issue. We get nothing on WR screens because no one can block. We are one of the worst traditional screen pass teams in the league. We also lack dynamic speed at WR.

My guess is the only WR that generated greater than expected YAC was Patterson who is fast and breaks tackles.

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18 hours ago, RJ_11 said:

Ok my horror about this move has been well documented earlier in the thread, but I can't go in to the season being so negative about our QB, so let's see what we've got. 

The arguments about Foles knowing the offense I understand and that is a positive, especially with coronavirus possibly ruining all OTAs and pushing back other off-season stuff. The deal itself I hate, and I still don't get the contract restructuring. But... if he gets us to the playoffs, what the hell is a 4th round pick?

So just watched Foles in week 11 last season at Indy. He has a really nice first quarter including a great TD drive, makes correct reads, distributes the ball well with good placement, executes RPOs properly. But after the scoring drive his play falls off a cliff, he starts to stare down Chark and just chuck it up to him when double-covered, he throws a TERRIBLE pick and should have been picked off twice before that. He plays better by the end of the game but it's in garbage time (Jax were 31-7 down in the 4th quarter).

His pocket presence struck me as much better than Mitch's, he makes slight adjustments to re-position himself for the throw, and gets the ball out fast and often to the correct read if he has a defender right in his face (whereas Mitch has that headless chicken approach when the pressure gets there).

I'm going to watch his next two starts when I'm "working" from home tomorrow, have to find the positives in this. So far, pocket presence and decision making under pressure are the big advantages over Mitch, but if we get the Foles that I just saw in the 2nd quarter of that game then that's not an upgrade.

 

Just watched his week 12 game at Tennessee. Another blowout and the Jags O-line were awful in this one, so it's even hard to judge some things. But:

Positives:

- Pocket presence. This immediately stands out as much better than Mitch's, he is by no means athletic but he understands how to manipulate the pocket so much better through the slight adjustments I spoke about in the week 11 game. A QB with awful pocket presence gives up about ten sacks in this game, think they gave up maybe three in the end.

- Accuracy/ball placement. Again, a lot of the more impressive throws came in garbage time, as he didn't have the time all day to throw downfield. But there are a couple of nice throws in the third quarter where he fits the ball in to a tight window, velocity on the passes is ok, seen better, seen worse. Has very good ball placement on a 2-point conversion, sticks it right above his WR's head and over the defender.

- RPOs. Couple of times I noticed he made the correct read on RPOs and completed the pass. Mitch was awful on RPOs.

Negatives:

- Deep ball. In both this game and the week before his deep ball is just not there, which is odd seeing as that was one of his strengths in the Superbowl run with Philly. Against Indy he made poor decisions on when to pull the trigger on the deep ball, and in both games they were inaccuracte.

- Athleticism. My God, his pocket presence may be good but do not get him outside... Are we sure this guy's only 31? At one point they call a designed (I think) QB run, and it's like watching a baby deer being born. I mean holy crap, legs all over the place.

 

Again, tough to analyse this one as the game was over halfway through and the O-line was awful. But Foles just looks like a below average QB in these two games. Better than Mitch though, and hopefully that's enough to win us an extra couple of games this year.

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6 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

Expected YAC is once the ball is in their hands.

Mitch also is about average in what PFR considers bad throw %.

 

It is not just a QB issue. We get nothing on WR screens because no one can block. We are one of the worst traditional screen pass teams in the league. We also lack dynamic speed at WR.

My guess is the only WR that generated greater than expected YAC was Patterson who is fast and breaks tackles.

We ran a ton of stop or comeback routes too. Those don’t typically generate much in the way of YAC. 

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8 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

We ran a ton of stop or comeback routes too. Those don’t typically generate much in the way of YAC. 

Yes, that is on the QB and a little on the OL.

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26 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

Peters, HOF and All Pro

Lane Johnson, All Pro

Brandon Brooks, All Pro

Jason Kelce, All Pro

 

Now those were not all in the same year. But he has 4 All Pro calibre OLmen on his line. 4 guys who are in the conversation for the best players at their positions.

OK but granted he did not have 4 All Pros on his OL every year he played in Philly.

I'm still looking at 2019 as an aberration as far as our OL goes.  We have four solid guys.  Not all top tier but I'd call them at least average or better.  IMHO missing Long and the initial flip flop of Daniels and Whitehair hurt the inside blocking and the run game a lot.  Then we also lost Massie for six games and we didn't appear to be well prepared for any of that.

The pass blocking didn't suffer as much as the run blocking but we need to get better along the OL.  But again most of that will have to be worked out internally for now.  We can add a vet RG and draft some talent but we're still gonna see at least four of the same guys there in 2020 as we played in 2019 so you work with that and look for ways to improve.

No matter how good the blocking is the QB still has to be able to read coverages and deliver and accurate throw to an open receiver so I can only give so much credit to that and if you look at Foles stats he took far more sacks his first two years in Philly than he has since even playing elsewhere so to some degree he's learned to adapt his game to his protection.

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1 minute ago, soulman said:

OK but granted he did not have 4 All Pros on his OL every year he played in Philly.

I'm still looking at 2019 as an aberration as far as our OL goes.  We have four solid guys.  Not all top tier but I'd call them at least average or better.  IMHO missing Long and the initial flip flop of Daniels and Whitehair hurt the inside blocking and the run game a lot.  Then we also lost Massie for six games and we didn't appear to be well prepared for any of that.

The pass blocking didn't suffer as much as the run blocking but we need to get better along the OL.  But again most of that will have to be worked out internally for now.  We can add a vet RG and draft some talent but we're still gonna see at least four of the same guys there in 2020 as we played in 2019 so you work with that and look for ways to improve.

No matter how good the blocking is the QB still has to be able to read coverages and deliver and accurate throw to an open receiver so I can only give so much credit to that and if you look at Foles stats he took far more sacks his first two years in Philly than he has since even playing elsewhere so to some degree he's learned to adapt his game to his protection.

Is an average OL good enough when you have average QB play?

Did he adapt his game or did his OL get better?

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2 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

Is an average OL good enough when you have average QB play?

Did he adapt his game or did his OL get better?

Who knows Windy?  I didn't go back and chart every game the guy ever played.  Even if he's had four All Pros in front of him at times that doesn't mean that in one year the entire OL was all that good or even 100% above average.  That's why no one actually analyzes that stuff.  It's too subjective and based on too many other factors so you look at what data you do have and go from there.  The only guys with better data are the coaches who have studied his game tapes.  Ask one of them.

The bottom line is he doesn't get sacked all that often or at least he hasn't.  Other than to use whatever stats we have there's no way of knowing what may happen in 2020 if he starts.  Until I see otherwise I'm gonna take the approach that he no worse than average as far as how long he holds onto the ball and that his release is at least average or better.  Overall Foles has been an above average passer and had a productive career.  He's may be no more than a #2 type but he's probably been the best #2 in the NFL many times.

What he is is exactly what Pace and Nagy said they wanted. An experienced vet whose also had playoff success who can push Mitch either into becoming what Pace believed he could be or push him to the bench and maybe off the roster entirely.  IMHO there is no other way we're ever gonna know whether or not Mitch is the guy until he realized this is it.  He knows now he either has to produce and do it quickly or his days in Chicago as a #1 QB will be over.  I'm relieved it finally come down to this so we know how to move on.

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1 hour ago, RJ_11 said:

Just watched his week 12 game at Tennessee. Another blowout and the Jags O-line were awful in this one, so it's even hard to judge some things. But:

Positives:

- Pocket presence. This immediately stands out as much better than Mitch's, he is by no means athletic but he understands how to manipulate the pocket so much better through the slight adjustments I spoke about in the week 11 game. A QB with awful pocket presence gives up about ten sacks in this game, think they gave up maybe three in the end.

- Accuracy/ball placement. Again, a lot of the more impressive throws came in garbage time, as he didn't have the time all day to throw downfield. But there are a couple of nice throws in the third quarter where he fits the ball in to a tight window, velocity on the passes is ok, seen better, seen worse. Has very good ball placement on a 2-point conversion, sticks it right above his WR's head and over the defender.

- RPOs. Couple of times I noticed he made the correct read on RPOs and completed the pass. Mitch was awful on RPOs.

Negatives:

- Deep ball. In both this game and the week before his deep ball is just not there, which is odd seeing as that was one of his strengths in the Superbowl run with Philly. Against Indy he made poor decisions on when to pull the trigger on the deep ball, and in both games they were inaccuracte.

- Athleticism. My God, his pocket presence may be good but do not get him outside... Are we sure this guy's only 31? At one point they call a designed (I think) QB run, and it's like watching a baby deer being born. I mean holy crap, legs all over the place.

 

Again, tough to analyse this one as the game was over halfway through and the O-line was awful. But Foles just looks like a below average QB in these two games. Better than Mitch though, and hopefully that's enough to win us an extra couple of games this year.

Kinda unfair when he just came back early from a major injury in week 1.  I don't think you can fairly use 2019 to evaluate Foles at all.

 

 

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Just now, dll2000 said:

Kinda unfair when he just came back early from a major injury in week 1.  I don't think you can fairly use 2019 to evaluate Foles at all.

 

 

That being said he has been mostly average most of his career with an awesome SB run.

 

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3 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

Kinda unfair when he just came back early from a major injury in week 1.  I don't think you can fairly use 2019 to evaluate Foles at all.

 

 

I've seen enough of Foles to say that he will most likely thrive here. This will push Mitch all the way and hopefully Mitch's time to really shine happens after we sign him to a 5yr 15mil deal ;) 

If chase daniel can successfully sling it around in this system Foles certainly can too. AND it is a very long season having 2 qbs will win games, and then in pressure stretch & PO games Foles has béen as good as it gets   Alot of benefit with 0 downside YAY Pace ! 

Now we have to learn how to run the ball  Which is sad bc we have a ton of OL talent and will add more very early in the draft imo

 

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24 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

Kinda unfair when he just came back early from a major injury in week 1.  I don't think you can fairly use 2019 to evaluate Foles at all.

 

 

Not without evaluating his best years in Philly and KC.

When ya' think about it even the idea of him being replaced by Minshew isn't all that significant.

JAX wasn't going anywhere.  When Foles returned from injury as with most teams he gets his job back but fully recovered was he?  But he's not playing well so why risk another injury?  Let's see what we really have in Minshew and apparently they liked it well enough to ship Foles off to us mostly because if they're rebuilding Minshew is far cheaper than Foles.

If the Bears situation was the same as JAX they would do the same and in fact did by cutting ties with Cutler before even knowing who they'd have to replace him and losing Cutler meant more cap space to rebuild around a new QB.  Cutler had been replaced by Brian Hoyer of all people the fall before he was released and Hoyer was by far not the better QB.

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22 minutes ago, SLCbear said:

I've seen enough of Foles to say that he will most likely thrive here. This will push Mitch all the way and hopefully Mitch's time to really shine happens after we sign him to a 5yr 15mil deal ;) 

If chase daniel can successfully sling it around in this system Foles certainly can too. AND it is a very long season having 2 qbs will win games, and then in pressure stretch & PO games Foles has béen as good as it gets   Alot of benefit with 0 downside YAY Pace ! 

Now we have to learn how to run the ball  Which is sad bc we have a ton of OL talent and will add more very early in the draft imo

 

We have Whitehair and Daniels who are talented, but neither played particularly well last year and both were awful in spurts.

 Massie and Leno are average at their peak abilities and below average at times.  We are below average at RG if it is Coward.  

Bars is an unknown still.  Seems to have some potential and talent.  

 

 

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Massie and Leno are both above average and durable. Whitehair and Daniels are studs ... Coward is nice too

everyone here looked like **** in 18-19 !!  WTF ??! It was pure dysfunction ! 

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