slay traded

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

1 minute ago, Nnivolcm said:

Just a homophobic one...

Is it equally homophobic to tell one male that he's "kissing the a--" of another male? (As in "sucking up to him"?)

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

7 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

It's a narrative constructed by TL out of thin air. 

That, and context clues. But, really: the guy never jokes around... he's completely serious. That comment he made to Slay? He really thought, based on practice reps, that Slay was actually performing fellatio on the guy. Like, no jokes... that's really what Patricia thought. Crazy, isn't it? (It's important to ignore that the phrase Patricia used towards Slay is used commonly, and in a joking way, to imply that someone is 'sucking up to' someone else. We must ignore that. Our hate for Patricia is too strong for such context.)

But, sure: Patricia is just this cruel, evil man and, really, a below-average coach. That's exactly why former Patriots want to come here, the "football capital of the world", known for its decades of successful football teams, to play for this "cruel, evil, below-average coach". Just ask Jamie Collins why he chose to sign with Detroit (other than this history of winning, of course):

Collins sounds like a glutton for punishment, choosing to play for such a horrible person.

[BarryTheBest]

Thought he just told him he wasnt elite? Did I miss something?

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

2 minutes ago, BarryTheBest said:

Thought he just told him he wasnt elite? Did I miss something?

As summarized by Karnage on page 12:

So I listened to Slay on whatever the show is with Stephen A and Max. He was talking about all of this. So the long and short of the situation is

- Slay got beat a bunch of times in practice by a particular player

- They put up film of him, the best player on the team, being beaten (Slay said he was ok with that)

- Then Patricia puts up photos of Slay's social media where he had praised said player (for whatever reason he keeps saying he won't name, but anyone with an Instagram account and 5 minutes of time could figure out who it is unless he deleted the post)

- Patricia says to Slay, in front of the whole group "stop sucking his ****" ie you were getting beaten by this guy, stop praising him and beat him back

- Slay even acknowledged that [Patricia] was trying to set the tone and that he had no issues adjusting to the new practice style

- Max Kellerman (I believe) even talked about how Bellichick had done that with an example when Randy Moss and Donte Stallworth had just joined the team. BB was ripping Brady for some bad throws in front of everybody. He was suggesting that what Patricia had done was to tell all of the younger guys "if the best player on the team can get chewed out, so can I"

- Slay talked about how people don't say that kind of stuff to other men where he's from, etc.

[BarryTheBest]

Just now, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

As summarized by Karnage on page 12:

 

Ahh, that is right. Thanks.

[Karnage84]

1 minute ago, BarryTheBest said:

Thought he just told him he wasnt elite? Did I miss something?

[Patricia] called Slay out for a) getting beat by a wr in practice (which should happen; b) then posting positive messages about said player (who Slay won't name) on social media

Basically, Patricia was trying to create a competitive environment, not one where you accept getting beaten multiple times and he was holding the best player on the team (at least on defense) accountable

[detroitroar]

Slays coming out of all this looking real soft.

I didnt see anything over the top. If it were that important, sit down in the office and hash it out. 

[Karnage84]

22 minutes ago, detroitroar said:

Slays coming out of all this looking real soft.

I didnt see anything over the top. If it were that important, sit down in the office and hash it out. 

I have my own perspective on this, as I have shared. Slay has been an elite level player and was great in the community. I have no issues with Slay overall and hope that he does well enough for himself outside of Detroit. He did a lot of stuff in the community and all of that. I just have had an issue with the negativity towards MP and the organization because of this and feel that everything was being overblown and very one sided. 

My purpose in fighting back on this is that everyone assumes the worst when one of your best players wants out. Patricia hasn't won a lot here and there is already the narrative out that he doesn't know what he's doing, doesn't have a plan, etc. The reality is, this is a simple clash of personality/management styles. The overall type of structure that Patricia wants isn't one that Slay wants to be a part of. The model (NE) is successful it just hasn't been successful here yet. It could be because we just don't have the guys who have that mental toughness and attention to detail that Patricia is trying to bring into the mix. The reason that guys who have come from NE are coming here is because they know what to expect and they've had their best levels of success in that scheme/ environment. We've seen plenty of guys flame out in NE because they just couldn't work in that environment. 

You can't let one player dictate organizational structure. They either buy in or they don't. If they don't, you let them go and find someone else that does. This isn't scheme - you can adjust scheme. It's the tempo and the heartbeat of your organization. Patricia and Quinn looked at Caldwell and said "9-7 isn't  good enough" because you're not competing, you're accepting average results. Caldwell took Schwartz's team early and provided the discipline that a talented group needed to go 11-5. He still did the job and deserves the credit for that coaching job. He also went 7-9 and deserves that same credit for that season as well. This front office does need to win more games and show that they aren't what their record says what they are. What they are trying to accomplish here is a change in the mentality. It starts with the details - like telling a guy he's going to get asked simple questions and then he doesn't do it or being treated disrespectfully by someone who is allowed to have access and holding them accountable for it. It's just common respect and courtesy. 

You can like it or not, love the guy or hate the guy... and it might not even work.. but I see someone that is trying to change how the whole organization thinks and operates.. from perennial losers to winners. I'm cheering for him and hope it works. 

 

Edited March 25, 2020 by Karnage84

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

Phenomenal post. Well said.

[nagahide13]

You want a winning culture but we currently lose more games than we did under the previous regime. You're all equating being a **** with being great. You want players that know what year the goddam stadium was built and sit up straight, but not players that are top 5 at their position because you think they're "soft". Why should players care when a stadium is built? Why is a coach quizzing players on that crap?

You want a bad coach thats a jerk, and you don't want a great player/human being because you think he's soft. (Weird how a superbowl winning coach just traded for him.)

Bill Belichick won a superbowl in his 2nd year in New England.  His style WORKS. His style is not the same as Matt Patricia's, even if they're close. Matt Patricia is 9-22-1. His style hasn't shown itself to be effective. Rather, it has proven itself quite ineffective so far.

Matt Patricia hasn't proven anything good yet. On the contrary, he has been quite bad. He didn't earn the respect of the locker room, which is why he has to ship half of them out.

His tenure has been pretty indefensible.

Edited March 25, 2020 by nagahide13

[LionArkie]

8 minutes ago, nagahide13 said:

You want a winning culture but we currently lose more games than we did under the previous regime. You're all equating being a **** with being great. You want players that know what year the goddam stadium was built and sit up straight, but not players that are top 5 at their position because you think they're "soft". Why should players care when a stadium is built? Why is a coach quizzing players on that crap?

You want a bad coach thats a jerk, and you don't want a great player/human being because you think he's soft. (Weird how a superbowl winning coach just traded for him.)

Bill Belichick won a superbowl in his 2nd year in New England.  His style WORKS. His style is not the same as Matt Patricia's, even if they're close. Matt Patricia is 9-22-1. His style hasn't shown itself to be effective. Rather, it has proven itself quite ineffective so far.

Matt Patricia hasn't proven anything good yet. On the contrary, he has been quite bad. He didn't earn the respect of the locker room, which is why he has to ship half of them out.

His tenure has been pretty indefensible.

I think the argument has continually been any coaching staff needs more than 2 years to turn it around, especially from a perennial losing team vs a coaching staff has two years to prove it and if they don't they need to leave.  Most arguing for Patricia have said they want to see what year 3 looks like.

Patricia is not Belichick.  I don't think anyone is arguing he is.

I'd rather have Slay today than Patricia because Patricia hasn't done crap so far in terms of wins.  If Patricia makes it to the playoffs next year, then I'd rather have Patricia. Do I think Patricia will make it to the playoffs next year? No I don't.

Yes, Patricia is a jerk or appears to be one to me. I'm just tired of the coaching carousel.

Do I think there is currently hypocrisy in the Lions front office?  Yes I do.

Has this situation with Slay moved me further from liking Patricia? Probably, but I haven't liked Patricia from the beginning soooo...

[Karnage84]

14 minutes ago, nagahide13 said:

You want a winning culture but we currently lose more games than we did under the previous regime. You're all equating being a **** with being great. You want players that know what year the goddam stadium was built and sit up straight, but not players that are top 5 at their position because you think they're "soft". Why should players care when a stadium is built? Why is a coach quizzing players on that crap?

You want a bad coach thats a jerk, and you don't want a great player/human being because you think he's soft. (Weird how a superbowl winning coach just traded for him.)

Bill Belichick won a superbowl in his 2nd year in New England.  His style WORKS. His style is not the same as Matt Patricia's, even if they're close. Matt Patricia is 9-22-1. His style hasn't shown itself to be effective. Rather, it has proven itself quite ineffective so far.

Matt Patricia hasn't proven anything good yet. On the contrary, he has been quite bad. He didn't earn the respect of the locker room, which is why he has to ship half of them out.

His tenure has been pretty indefensible.

It's attention to detail. It's about process and instilling that into the players in the locker room. Knowing what year Ford Field was built isn't going to help the team succeed on the field. Being attentive to detail is translatable to practice habits, film study, technique, etc. Everybody in the league is talented, some of varying degrees. 

I think you're missing the point. Many coaches have different coaching methods with varying levels of success. Tony Dungy is a guy that has won championships while being a super player friendly coach and Bellichick has won being the cold-hearted SOB that he is. Some players will respond to both styles and some will respond better to one style. As a business owner, not every person that I interview is going to be a fit in my work environment. Just as I would not work as well in other environments. Just because Pederson won a SB doesn't mean that Patricia won't in the future. 

I do think that Slay has overreacted and that the whole thing is being overblown based on what we've heard directly from Slay himself. At the end of the day, Slay is the one who has to work in that environment. I still think it had more to do with money than it did anything else. The Lions don't think he's worth that much as an aging corner and Slay has taken offense to that. 

[nagahide13]

30 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

I think you're missing the point. Many coaches have different coaching methods with varying levels of success. Tony Dungy is a guy that has won championships while being a super player friendly coach and Bellichick has won being the cold-hearted SOB that he is. Some players will respond to both styles and some will respond better to one style. As a business owner, not every person that I interview is going to be a fit in my work environment. Just as I would not work as well in other environments. Just because Pederson won a SB doesn't mean that Patricia won't in the future.

I don't believe I am. My entire point is that Patricia hasn't earned anything. He's been exceptionally poor so far, and his coaching style has driven great players away without providing any kind of success in return.

Maybe he will become a good head coach. Maybe it will be in Detroit. Maybe it will happen this year.

It has not happened yet. He is a bad head coach, and some people here are giving him a huge amount of leeway based on his success as an assistant.

30 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

The Lions don't think he's worth that much as an aging corner and Slay has taken offense to that. 

I definitely buy that. If the "you're not elite" comment had come during contract negotiations, I'd be firmly on the side of management.

Edited March 25, 2020 by nagahide13

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

1 hour ago, nagahide13 said:

You want a winning culture but we currently lose more games than we did under the previous regime. You're all equating being a **** with being great. You want players that know what year the goddam stadium was built and sit up straight, but not players that are top 5 at their position because you think they're "soft". Why should players care when a stadium is built? Why is a coach quizzing players on that crap?

You want a bad coach thats a jerk, and you don't want a great player/human being because you think he's soft. (Weird how a superbowl winning coach just traded for him.)

Bill Belichick won a superbowl in his 2nd year in New England.  His style WORKS. His style is not the same as Matt Patricia's, even if they're close. Matt Patricia is 9-22-1. His style hasn't shown itself to be effective. Rather, it has proven itself quite ineffective so far.

Matt Patricia hasn't proven anything good yet. On the contrary, he has been quite bad. He didn't earn the respect of the locker room, which is why he has to ship half of them out.

His tenure has been pretty indefensible.

But isn't a lot of this based on Patricia's record alone? What you're essentially arguing is that, had Patricia won the Super Bowl this year, none of this background noise nonsense would matter: comments to Slay, ripping Kerryon for not knowing DET history (when told to learn it), asking beat writers to sit up while asking questions... being a jerk is fine so long as the team wins? Doesn't that seem... sort of flawed?

If we're basing this purely off of record, isn't it significant that the Lions' best player missed half of the season? Do we hold that against Patricia? Aren't we in a better position right now, having finished 3-12-1, then if we would have scraped together 8 wins?

Plenty of very good NFL players like Patricia. Many have decided to come to DET, not because it's the city of great football, but because of him. Isn't this also relevant?

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

There were reports that Slay wouldn't pay attention in team meetings, and would then go to other players afterwards and say that the coaches don't know what they're talking about.

Compare that mentality to this quote from a member of the organization about Jarrad Davis:

The former first-round pick has yet to live up to expectations and is coming off his worst season yet, with a career-low 63 tackles, two sacks and one pass defended in 11 games in 2019. But he’s also been a favorite of Matt Patricia’s because of his attitude, practice habits, film study and IQ. And in an era where Patricia has sometimes struggled to win over certain corners of the locker room, he has valued Davis’ no-nonsense approach to manning the heart of his defense.