slay traded

[LionArkie]

17 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

The former first-round pick has yet to live up to expectations and is coming off his worst season yet, with a career-low 63 tackles, two sacks and one pass defended in 11 games in 2019. But he’s also been a favorite of Matt Patricia’s because of his attitude, practice habits, film study and IQ. And in an era where Patricia has sometimes struggled to win over certain corners of the locker room, he has valued Davis’ no-nonsense approach to manning the heart of his defense.

17 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

There were reports that Slay wouldn't pay attention in team meetings, and would then go to other players afterwards and say that the coaches don't know what they're talking about.

Compare that mentality to this quote from a member of the organization about Jarrad Davis:

 

 

hmmm...I don't know if I like this.  I can understand moving on from Slay, if what is said is true about him not paying attention and talking about the coaches negatively to other players.  I understand too, to reward ambitious players and good work ethic, but at what cost?  I know we have debated Davis being played out of position, but does rewarding a poor to average player for being a hard worker make sense and completely tear down one of the best positional players in the league who wouldn't pay attention? If he is not paying attention and not getting the job done is one thing, but to not pay attention and still excel and to be seen as a problem? I think this should throw up red flags everywhere.

Notre Dame wasn't better because of Rudy, but it sure did make a good movie.

 

***I worded this very poorly.

Edited March 25, 2020 by LionArkie

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

Fair points.

I think this might work in Patricia's favor. If he can take a guy like Davis - a player that most fans think is awful and likely shouldn't be on the field - and can utilize him in an effective way, it may show that Patricia is able to utilize a player's skillset effectively.

I'll never believe that a coach or organization should just "deal" with a distraction. If they felt Slay was that, paying him a ton of money to be that way is bad business, in my opinion.

[BigC421/]

Can’t we all just look at this situation and say they both look bad?  I think Slays overall resume as a human buys him some clout but acting like a B.I. Is never a good look or helpful for that matter.  Patricia’s faults however are a bit more glaring and habitual.  He’s also not nearly as good at his job.  

 

TL you seem to have an ideal of how you want a “hard ***” team culture and environment and I get it.  That way worked really well for a long time. So much so that it was essentially a part of the fabric of football culture itself.  But things change over time. Adapt or die.  Kids coming up these days just don’t respond to that the same.  There high school coaches aren’t aloud to treat them that way.  They have way more power and influence than the players who came before them.  Tom Coughlin just got kicked out of the league and Patricia won’t be far behind him 

[detroitroar]

Good and nice Patricia but open your mind and put him in a position to succeed. 

Have him up blitzing and covering flat routes.

[LionArkie]

2 minutes ago, BigC421/ said:

Can’t we all just look at this situation and say they both look bad?  I think Slays overall resume as a human buys him some clout but acting like a B.I. Is never a good look or helpful for that matter.  Patricia’s faults however are a bit more glaring and habitual.  He’s also not nearly as good at his job.  

 

TL you seem to have an ideal of how you want a “hard ***” team culture and environment and I get it.  That way worked really well for a long time. So much so that it was essentially a part of the fabric of football culture itself.  But things change over time. Adapt or die.  Kids coming up these days just don’t respond to that the same.  There high school coaches aren’t aloud to treat them that way.  They have way more power and influence than the players who came before them.  Tom Coughlin just got kicked out of the league and Patricia won’t be far behind him 

However, football players act like hard *****. They want to show they are the dominant ones.  I don't think any father says, you know who would be a good husband for my daughter, an NFL player.  I think to act like these guys need to be coddled is a reach. To your point though, I do think this is on both of them, but I'd put it more on Patricia and in fairness, I believe Patricia has grown from it in terms of handling players and I think that's what we all want.

[BigC421/]

I’m not suggesting coddling them, this isn’t the NBA.....yet.  There all grown men and professionals and should be treated as such. Professional respect threwout a locker room goes along way.  Being a **** not so much

[Nnivolcm]

37 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

There were reports that Slay wouldn't pay attention in team meetings, and would then go to other players afterwards and say that the coaches don't know what they're talking about.

Missing quite a bit of context referencing quotes by an anonymous source...

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

1 hour ago, BigC421/ said:

TL you seem to have an ideal of how you want a “hard ***” team culture and environment and I get it.  That way worked really well for a long time. So much so that it was essentially a part of the fabric of football culture itself.  But things change over time. Adapt or die.  Kids coming up these days just don’t respond to that the same.  There high school coaches aren’t aloud to treat them that way.  They have way more power and influence than the players who came before them.  Tom Coughlin just got kicked out of the league and Patricia won’t be far behind him 

Fair points.

The truth is that I don't really have a preference. I didn't criticize Caldwell's friendly approach, and I won't criticize Patricia's loud, tough approach. Both of them have far more experience in an NFL locker room than I do, and both have Super Bowl rings. Both strategies can absolutely work.

I just don't believe in this "anti-Patricia" mentality, and I won't let something like that make me hate this team. I don't believe that everything Patricia does is wrong, I don't believe that a 3-12-1 record is an accurate reflection of this roster, and I definitely don't believe that firing the head coach after every 2-3 seasons is the best thing for an organization.

Was Patricia's comment potentially offensive? Eh, I guess. Is it a figure of speech? Absolutely. If Slay took offense, should he have approached Patricia right away and cleared the air? Of course. Patricia admitted that he wanted to be a better coach and leader after his first year, and Slay said that his second year with Patricia was "good". It sounds like this whole thing has been completely overblown.

Firing Patricia based on the results of a season where the best player on the team missed half of the year would be a terrible decision, in my opinion, and would only set this team back.

[BarryTheBest]

14 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Fair points.

The truth is that I don't really have a preference. I didn't criticize Caldwell's friendly approach, and I won't criticize Patricia's loud, tough approach. Both of them have far more experience in an NFL locker room than I do, and both have Super Bowl rings. Both strategies can absolutely work.

I just don't believe in this "anti-Patricia" mentality, and I won't let something like that make me hate this team. I don't believe that everything Patricia does is wrong, I don't believe that a 3-12-1 record is an accurate reflection of this roster, and I definitely don't believe that firing the head coach after every 2-3 seasons is the best thing for an organization.

Was Patricia's comment potentially offensive? Eh, I guess. Is it a figure of speech? Absolutely. If Slay took offense, should he have approached Patricia right away and cleared the air? Of course. Patricia admitted that he wanted to be a better coach and leader after his first year, and Slay said that his second year with Patricia was "good". It sounds like this whole thing has been completely overblown.

Firing Patricia based on the results of a season where the best player on the team missed half of the year would be a terrible decision, in my opinion, and would only set this team back.

I agree here. 

I brought it up, and you brought it up.. All these issues with players, media, etc. seemed to take place during his first year. He admittedly self reflected and made strides within the locker room and media that was called out in various articles during this last season.

Does this mean he will be a the right coach, we have this year to find out if he can turn the ship around. But, that piece of self reflection and change in the manner of one off season should not be lost on people.. Even the most ardent critics against him.

I really hope we turn it into a playoff season and can keep some continuity with our staff.. 

We all deserve to see some sustained success despite our many different opinions on things.

[BigC421/]

My reasoning for wanting Patricia Quinn fires was 2 fold.  Obviously the losing sucks. They haven’t been very successful period.  Patricia in particular hasn’t really been successful at his job anywhere.  The defense was usually a weak spot during his tenure in NE.  They got worse when he took over and significantly improved after he left.  For a 20 year Patriot run partially known for playing stout consistent defense Patricia was the “ yeah not so much” era of Pats football.  They did play good D the year they went all in on defensive offseason and beat Seattle in the SB.  He also managed turn arguably the greatest individual qb performance in a SB into a loss somehow?   

The other half and for me just as if not more important is that team came into the off-season with all the assets for a quick rebuild on the fly and these guys are not the ones I’d prefer making the decisions.  Cap space, draft capital and tradable assets they were all right there.  An absolute elite franchise qb prospect could even be staring you in the face.  Team could have been very easily ready to roll and compete by year 2 of Tua for the next decade.  I think it could end up being biggest mistake in Lions history ( aware of boldness)

[LionArkie]

11 minutes ago, BigC421/ said:

My reasoning for wanting Patricia Quinn fires was 2 fold.  Obviously the losing sucks. They haven’t been very successful period.  Patricia in particular hasn’t really been successful at his job anywhere.  The defense was usually a weak spot during his tenure in NE.  They got worse when he took over and significantly improved after he left.  For a 20 year Patriot run partially known for playing stout consistent defense Patricia was the “ yeah not so much” era of Pats football.  They did play good D the year they went all in on defensive offseason and beat Seattle in the SB.  He also managed turn arguably the greatest individual qb performance in a SB into a loss somehow?   

The other half and for me just as if not more important is that team came into the off-season with all the assets for a quick rebuild on the fly and these guys are not the ones I’d prefer making the decisions.  Cap space, draft capital and tradable assets they were all right there.  An absolute elite franchise qb prospect could even be staring you in the face.  Team could have been very easily ready to roll and compete by year 2 of Tua for the next decade.  I think it could end up being biggest mistake in Lions history ( aware of boldness)

I pretty much agree with all of this except I don’t come to the conclusion they should be fired. They never should have been hired, but alas here we are. If someone else comes in now, with all these specific patriot parts, with at best average players, we will be in for a 5 year rebuild. Then they too, will be fired for not getting it done in 5 years.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

5 minutes ago, BigC421/ said:

My reasoning for wanting Patricia Quinn fires was 2 fold.  Obviously the losing sucks. They haven’t been very successful period.  Patricia in particular hasn’t really been successful at his job anywhere.  The defense was usually a weak spot during his tenure in NE.  They got worse when he took over and significantly improved after he left.  For a 20 year Patriot run partially known for playing stout consistent defense Patricia was the “ yeah not so much” era of Pats football.  They did play good D the year they went all in on defensive offseason and beat Seattle in the SB.  He also managed turn arguably the greatest individual qb performance in a SB into a loss somehow?   

The other half and for me just as if not more important is that team came into the off-season with all the assets for a quick rebuild on the fly and these guys are not the ones I’d prefer making the decisions.  Cap space, draft capital and tradable assets they were all right there.  An absolute elite franchise qb prospect could even be staring you in the face.  Team could have been very easily ready to roll and compete by year 2 of Tua for the next decade.  I think it could end up being biggest mistake in Lions history ( aware of boldness)

Lots going on here, and it all sounds reasonable. The part in bold stood out to me, as it sharply contradicts everything I've read about Patricia.

Patricia took over as NE's defensive coordinator in 2012 and held that position through the 2017 season. The below numbers pertain to the Patriots' "Team Defense" as listed by www.pro-football-reference.com:

2011 - 15th Overall

2012 - 10th Overall
2013 - 10th Overall
2014 - 8th Overall (SB W)
2015 - 10th Overall
2016 - 1st Overall (SB W)
2017 - 5th Overall (SB L)

2018 - 7th Overall

Prior to taking the DC position, NE ranked 15th in "Team Defense". As DC, they improved by 5 during his first year. After he left, NE's "Team Defense" rank dropped by 2. Now, stats can absolutely be misleading, and there may be more to it than this, but, based an overall metric of team defense by a valid source, NE's defense improved under Patricia, never ranked lower than 10th in the league, and got slightly worse once Patricia left. In addition, his team went to the playoffs each of those six seasons, played in three Super Bowls and won two of them. Your characterization of Patricia's tenure as DC in NE doesn't sound accurate.

As for the rebuild: I do think it's unfortunate that Martha Firestone Ford felt the need to 'pressure' Quinn and Patricia into success in 2020. We'll never know if Quinn would've opted for Tua had he felt he had time take his time building a dynasty, but we really can't rule it out. As it stands, drafting Tua would be a risk that Quinn is justified in not wanting to take.

[LionArkie]

16 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Lots going on here, and it all sounds reasonable. The part in bold stood out to me, as it sharply contradicts everything I've read about Patricia.

Patricia took over as NE's defensive coordinator in 2012 and held that position through the 2017 season. The below numbers pertain to the Patriots' "Team Defense" as listed by www.pro-football-reference.com:

2011 - 15th Overall

2012 - 10th Overall
2013 - 10th Overall
2014 - 8th Overall (SB W)
2015 - 10th Overall
2016 - 1st Overall (SB W)
2017 - 5th Overall (SB L)

2018 - 7th Overall

Prior to taking the DC position, NE ranked 15th in "Team Defense". As DC, they improved by 5 during his first year. After he left, NE's "Team Defense" rank dropped by 2. Now, stats can absolutely be misleading, and there may be more to it than this, but, based an overall metric of team defense by a valid source, NE's defense improved under Patricia, never ranked lower than 10th in the league, and got slightly worse once Patricia left. In addition, his team went to the playoffs each of those six seasons, played in three Super Bowls and won two of them. Your characterization of Patricia's tenure as DC in NE doesn't sound accurate.

As for the rebuild: I do think it's unfortunate that Martha Firestone Ford felt the need to 'pressure' Quinn and Patricia into success in 2020. We'll never know if Quinn would've opted for Tua had he felt he had time take his time building a dynasty, but we really can't rule it out. As it stands, drafting Tua would be a risk that Quinn is justified in not wanting to take.

Glad you posted this. I believed mp to be overhyped as a dc as well.  I still think the best long term plan for this team would be a young stud qb. 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

4 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

Glad you posted this. I believed mp to be overhyped as a dc as well.  I still think the best long term plan for this team would be a young stud qb. 

Yeah, I really don't disagree. We're in a great position to land one as well, which makes it all unfortunate.

Question to those that aren't fans of Quinn or Patricia: if they drafted Tua and finished 8-8, would you believe that they should be fired?

[Uncle Buck]

When I first heard the news about Slay I was all excited about his being out of the division - until I remembered that we traded Stefon Diggs too, so what have we gained?