Consensus Mock Draft II - Post Combine - Pick 4 - Giants

[Soko]

6 hours ago, minutemancl said:

In an ideal world, the Chargers and Dolphins trade up to picks 2 and 3 to take their QBs and we get Chase Young. In the 2nd most ideal world, we get a bounty of picks for our pick from someone who wants a QB, trade back a few spots, and land both a good C and OT prospect. 

I don’t think your second scenario is that far fetched. Maybe not a bounty, but definitely enough to both get one of those top 4 tackles + a high second to either use on a player or use to trade up.

[DirtyDez]

You can’t teach what Wirfs has naturally.  Someone that young and big shouldn’t be able to move like that.  Unless there’s a work ethic issue or he gets terrible coaching it’s only a matter of time before the polish matches the athleticism.
 

 

[JStar221]

I think they have to go OT in rd 1. The most important player on the team is Jones. You have to protect him. Secondly, the better you get that OL, Barkley becomes exponentially better. As does Jones. Noting wrong with trying to win offensively. And most draft picks after rd 2 - go and get defense. Giants already went heavy on defense in FA. Thus the D will be improved between FA and drafting from rd 3 and on.  

OT's I'd like to see: 1- Wills, 2 Wirfs, 3-Thomas, 4- Beckton.  

[Kip Smithers]

1 hour ago, JStar221 said:

I think they have to go OT in rd 1. The most important player on the team is Jones. You have to protect him. Secondly, the better you get that OL, Barkley becomes exponentially better. As does Jones. Noting wrong with trying to win offensively. And most draft picks after rd 2 - go and get defense. Giants already went heavy on defense in FA. Thus the D will be improved between FA and drafting from rd 3 and on.  

OT's I'd like to see: 1- Wills, 2 Wirfs, 3-Thomas, 4- Beckton.  

Heavy on defense in FA? Other than Bradberry and stupidly giving Leonard Williams the franchise tag, we really didn’t address our defense. We can go OL in round two and 3. Much better value there. This team is lacking in defensive playmakers. Get an elite defensive prospect such as Simmons or at worst Okudah. This team hasn’t had a difference making defensive player since having a young JPP. 

[JStar221]

15 hours ago, Kip Smithers said:

Heavy on defense in FA? Other than Bradberry and stupidly giving Leonard Williams the franchise tag, we really didn’t address our defense. We can go OL in round two and 3. Much better value there. This team is lacking in defensive playmakers. Get an elite defensive prospect such as Simmons or at worst Okudah. This team hasn’t had a difference making defensive player since having a young JPP. 

Yes.

A starting DL, 2 starting LB's, and 1 starting CB is "heavy." Four starters does address the defense vs last year. 

As for "value" imo the best value is preserving Jones and enhancing Barkley. Okudah, Simmons or Brown can't / wouldn't be a more overall positive than that. If you want to drop a pick or 2 etc- to still get the OT - okay fine.  But the key is getting one of the big 4 OT's. Though I happen to think Wills is a beast, and there is too much risk with 2nd and 3rd rd picks for a LT. 

The Giants aren't winning a Super Bowl in 2020-2021 season. The difference makers on this team are hopefully the QB, and the RB is a difference maker. When was the last time the Giants had a difference maker at RB with anyone near Barkley's talent? We supposedly have our franchise QB. He got beaten up pretty good last year. Let's give him the best chance to be successful/ and not end up getting wiped out. 

[Kip Smithers]

11 hours ago, JStar221 said:

Yes.

A starting DL, 2 starting LB's, and 1 starting CB is "heavy." Four starters does address the defense vs last year. 

As for "value" imo the best value is preserving Jones and enhancing Barkley. Okudah, Simmons or Brown can't / wouldn't be a more overall positive than that. If you want to drop a pick or 2 etc- to still get the OT - okay fine.  But the key is getting one of the big 4 OT's. Though I happen to think Wills is a beast, and there is too much risk with 2nd and 3rd rd picks for a LT. 

The Giants aren't winning a Super Bowl in 2020-2021 season. The difference makers on this team are hopefully the QB, and the RB is a difference maker. When was the last time the Giants had a difference maker at RB with anyone near Barkley's talent? We supposedly have our franchise QB. He got beaten up pretty good last year. Let's give him the best chance to be successful/ and not end up getting wiped out. 

If that’s what you call addressing the defense then this defense is in trouble. And considering those guys we added are to replace some guys that we lost, we didn’t really address the defense. Still gonna be one of worst defensive units in da league. It’s been nearly a decade since we drafted an all pro calibre defensive player and we have the opportunity to draft somebody who is perfect for today’s game.
 

Saquon plays a disposable position. We can address the OL day 2. That’s where there is great value. Saquon is an elite talent he can be a. Difference maker regardless. That’s why we picked him where we did. What risk is there for 2nd and 3rd round picks on OL? 

[JStar221]

4 hours ago, Kip Smithers said:

If that’s what you call addressing the defense then this defense is in trouble. And considering those guys we added are to replace some guys that we lost, we didn’t really address the defense. Still gonna be one of worst defensive units in da league. It’s been nearly a decade since we drafted an all pro calibre defensive player and we have the opportunity to draft somebody who is perfect for today’s game.
 

Saquon plays a disposable position. We can address the OL day 2. That’s where there is great value. Saquon is an elite talent he can be a. Difference maker regardless. That’s why we picked him where we did. What risk is there for 2nd and 3rd round picks on OL? 

We're not winning the Super Bowl this year. Every one of the 4 players as a sum is an improvement though and they spent a lot of money overall for the 4. Plus drafting later in the draft there will be further improvements to the defense.  So yeah we're in trouble but the defense will get better. We're not getting Young, and there's no other defensive player that is going to "get us out of trouble." We're projected to stink because the defense stinks and the offense isn't very good. But draft a LT it will give more chance for success.   

And if you don't believe in Barkley then you might as well trade him or cut him. I didn't like the pick but imo if you don't try to use him to his max potential then what's the point of paying him so much?   So I don't understand your point "he is disposable" but yet you make a point that he is elite." How can you be elite yet be disposable all at the same time? 

Barkley cannot impact the game as an "elite" player if he is not given the OLINE. A RB needs an OLINE badly. Just because we call him "elite" doesn't mean anything if the OL isn't any good. Barkley and Jones (if Jones is a true Franchise QB)  will make the team significantly better if they find a LT.  Without that OLINE -- Barkley's ability to affect games in a consistent manner is severely limited.  I think we gotta give him a chance by giving him an OLINE. 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by JStar221
added comment

[Kip Smithers]

8 hours ago, JStar221 said:

We're not winning the Super Bowl this year. Every one of the 4 players as a sum is an improvement though and they spent a lot of money overall for the 4. Plus drafting later in the draft there will be further improvements to the defense.  So yeah we're in trouble but the defense will get better. We're not getting Young, and there's no other defensive player that is going to "get us out of trouble." We're projected to stink because the defense stinks and the offense isn't very good. But draft a LT it will give more chance for success.   

And if you don't believe in Barkley then you might as well trade him or cut him. I didn't like the pick but imo if you don't try to use him to his max potential then what's the point of paying him so much?   So I don't understand your point "he is disposable" but yet you make a point that he is elite." How can you be elite yet be disposable all at the same time? 

Barkley cannot impact the game as an "elite" player if he is not given the OLINE. A RB needs an OLINE badly. Just because we call him "elite" doesn't mean anything if the OL isn't any good. Barkley and Jones (if Jones is a true Franchise QB)  will make the team significantly better if they find a LT.  Without that OLINE -- Barkley's ability to affect games in a consistent manner is severely limited.  I think we gotta give him a chance by giving him an OLINE. 

 

 

We have the chance to get somebody rare. A player that is perfect for this league. You just said yourself basically that o-line is about the some of parts therefore individually they’re not as valuable. The second round and third rounds we can find quality lineman there. It’s a deep class. And I don’t know what you mean by saying we’re not winning the SB next year. Like I don’t see why that is relevant. 
 

my point with regards to Saquon is that his position is disposable, moreso than he is. He is an elite talent for sure but he plays a disposable position. My point is that if he is an elite talent as pretty much everybody thinks then he shouldn’t need an elite OT prospect for him to be the best. Otherwise it only confirms he was the wrong pick in 2018. So again, we can get a potentially good tackle at the top of the second round or potentially trade up into end of first.

[JStar221]

19 hours ago, Kip Smithers said:

We have the chance to get somebody rare. A player that is perfect for this league. You just said yourself basically that o-line is about the some of parts therefore individually they’re not as valuable. The second round and third rounds we can find quality lineman there. It’s a deep class. And I don’t know what you mean by saying we’re not winning the SB next year. Like I don’t see why that is relevant. 
 

my point with regards to Saquon is that his position is disposable, moreso than he is. He is an elite talent for sure but he plays a disposable position. My point is that if he is an elite talent as pretty much everybody thinks then he shouldn’t need an elite OT prospect for him to be the best. Otherwise it only confirms he was the wrong pick in 2018. So again, we can get a potentially good tackle at the top of the second round or potentially trade up into end of first.

Regarding the 1st point in bold I was talking about the defense.overall when I referred to "sum." Because our new OLB isn't as good I used "sum" because the other 3 are rather than going a bit off-topic over 1 player.  Leonard is better than what they had before him (I'm not talking about the money the Giants gave). And their ILB and their CB are better than last year. So "as a sum" the Giant's defense has improved. Which is why I didn't agree with your 1st reply to me that you didn't think the Giants went "heavy" on defense. We have different definitions of words. for me, I can define "heavy" when my team picks up 4 starters in FA in one year in which 3 of them are making $10m or more. 

And our disagreement leads to the 2nd point I highlighted in bold above. The Giants defense has improved. If they get this terrific defensive player - they're still not going to win just as much as if they get the stud OT. But the stud OT "saves Jones" which the 2nd rd pick is much more riskier in "saving" Jones from a beating. Also with the stud OT it will enhance the performance of Barkley. So why not get the stud OT? You're getting 2-for-1 here. That defensive player you seek as a sum will not make the team better as much vs. the OT because he cna potentially make Jones and Barkley that much better. SO while you ask about what's the risk of of getting an OT in rd 2 vs. getting Okudah, or SImmons or Brown in rd 1, one part of my reply is that we're not winning a lot with these defenders for next year anyways, so why not protect our young franchise QB along with enhance Barkley instead? We'll win more. So while you are arguing with me about Barkley you also have to argue with me about Jones because the LT will make both better, not just SB.  

The last part in bold and underlined imo this is one big issue I think we're having. I do think Barkley was the wrong pick because for a RB you need to give them a good OL.. And because of that, his need for a good OL (including this type of stud LT) is the way he can show off what he can do vs the elite teams. He is not going to perform "elite" vs the good defensive playoff teams on a consistent basis without having that OL. What I mean by consistent - is a generalization that early in his career is 2 out every 3 playoff games he has very good performances. Calling him "elite" doesn't "mean" anything when he goes against good defenses come playoff time. OFC 1 game  anything can happen.