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Just now, Deadpulse said:

This is a logical fallacy, sorry. 

Enlighten me please.  In my non medical opinion those would also be "preventable".  I am just not understanding what you baseline is here...also I am a few pages behind and see you were also kind of asked this.  I don't think anyone here wants anyone to suffer and unless I missed something, did someone specifically say we need to start to loosen up? 

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1 minute ago, Danger said:

Ironically enough, though likely due to precautions taken to prevent COVID, Influenza is at historic lows in terms of number of cases.

Read a pretty good twitter feed (oxymoron I know) the other day which I wanted to post here but 1) I don't know how and 2) didn't feel like being burnt at the stake. It covered the following topics including the flu. 

1. Masks are great and all but what happens over time as people wear the same mask for weeks/months at a time, do they become less effective or potentially create a nebulizing effect?

2. Could these same steps be used to help the spread of the flu (and other novel virus), but if so, at what cost?  Would humans begin to lose their natural ability to create immunities to certain disease/virus/etc. 

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1 minute ago, acowboys62 said:

Read a pretty good twitter feed (oxymoron I know) the other day which I wanted to post here but 1) I don't know how and 2) didn't feel like being burnt at the stake. It covered the following topics including the flu. 

1. Masks are great and all but what happens over time as people wear the same mask for weeks/months at a time, do they become less effective or potentially create a nebulizing effect?

2. Could these same steps be used to help the spread of the flu (and other novel virus), but if so, at what cost?  Would humans begin to lose their natural ability to create immunities to certain disease/virus/etc. 

1. I don't think there's any real issue with repeatedly wearing a mask unless you've worn said mask while having the disease. If the virus doesn't exist within the mask itself (meaning you had it and breathed it into the mask) then I don't see it being any less effective after continued use.

2. Absolutely, but like everything in life, eventually you come to the crossroads of diminishing returns, at what point is so much more effort required to make inconsequential gains in one area, while potentially even doing harm in other unforeseen circumstances.

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6 minutes ago, Danger said:

Wouldn't call it a fallacy, but it's certainly a strawman.

Strawman is technically a type of logical fallacy, so we are both right 😎

 

9 minutes ago, acowboys62 said:

Enlighten me please.  In my non medical opinion those would also be "preventable".  I am just not understanding what you baseline is here...also I am a few pages behind and see you were also kind of asked this.  I don't think anyone here wants anyone to suffer and unless I missed something, did someone specifically say we need to start to loosen up? 

A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person’s argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making.

https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-straw-man/

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1 minute ago, Danger said:

1. I don't think there's any real issue with repeatedly wearing a mask unless you've worn said mask while having the disease. If the virus doesn't exist within the mask itself (meaning you had it and breathed it into the mask) then I don't see it being any less effective after continued use.

2. Absolutely, but like everything in life, eventually you come to the crossroads of diminishing returns, at what point is so much more effort required to make inconsequential gains in one area, while potentially even doing harm in other unforeseen circumstances.

I would like to see some studies done on 1.  I would think type of masks, how you store it eventually come into play.  I imagine those one time use surgical masks eventually break down with moisture + sitting on someone dash board...others may not. 

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1 minute ago, Deadpulse said:

Strawman is technically a type of logical fallacy, so we are both right 😎

 

A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person’s argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making.

https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-straw-man/

The claim you made was 1) we should care about preventable deaths (I agree). Asking you a question to gauge to what degree is not strawman.  Most people only now give two ****s about people dying because it became a reality for them over the past 8 months or so.  I also know most people won't admin that is how they think.  Helps to understand where a person is coming from if you are going to have a conversation with them. 

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11 minutes ago, acowboys62 said:

I would like to see some studies done on 1.  I would think type of masks, how you store it eventually come into play.  I imagine those one time use surgical masks eventually break down with moisture + sitting on someone dash board...others may not. 

I'd imagine that there would be some changes/degradation  over time - but are those changes significant ?
From a purely academic research POV, you could probably show some decline in performance- but a lesser mask is still better than no mask at all and from a public health POV, that's the message that needs to be delivered clearly and repeatedly.

The study you are suggesting would most certainly result in screaming headlines in 40 point font declaring: " MASKS DON'T WORK !!!!!"

In public health you're dealing with the public ( read: idiots) and as such those statements are held to a higher standard.

You can't make a statement so it can be understood - you have to make a statement so it cannot be misunderstood.

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57 minutes ago, Deadpulse said:
58 minutes ago, acowboys62 said:

Do you believe deaths related to alcohol, cigarettes', obesity are preventable? If so, do you put the same type of energy into those things as you do COVID?  If not, is it because those things will not impact your life if you do not partake in them? 

This is a logical fallacy, sorry. 

I'll answer it, because it's important.

Yes, yes, and yes. As an industry, pharma absolutely believes those 3 are diseases which cause preventable deaths, and we try and treat the side effects of those diseases. Drugs to help with kidney and liver failure from chronic alcoholism. Treatments for lung cancer from smoking. Better drugs for Type 2 diabetes are being found all the time to deal with the obesity crisis. We've tried to develop weight loss drugs for years, and there is one marketed (or at least it has been for a while). 

Now, it's entirely fair to respond that the motive was profits and pharma wasn't treating the disease in any of those changes. Fair. But the healthcare industry also has changed as it's started to realize that those types of symptom-based treatments aren't getting to the core issue. The push for access to mental health and emotional support resources is a huge part of this.

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42 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Yes, yes, and yes. As an industry, pharma absolutely believes those 3 are diseases which cause preventable deaths, and we try and treat the side effects of those diseases. Drugs to help with kidney and liver failure from chronic alcoholism. Treatments for lung cancer from smoking. Better drugs for Type 2 diabetes are being found all the time to deal with the obesity crisis. We've tried to develop weight loss drugs for years, and there is one marketed (or at least it has been for a while). 

Pfizer also developed Chantix to help people quit cigarettes, there are dozens of drugs in development to treat cirrhosis of the liver etc
There were very successful anti-smoking campaigns that helped prevent many deaths and they were kicking *** until vaping came along so as a society, we've invested significantly is those issues over time

The weight loss drug Belviq hasn't done all that well in the marketplace, but its another example of treating a serious health issue to prevent deaths - and that helps the individuals as well as the greater society. None of those vices are infectious diseases though -  and none of them can be spread to innocent bystanders - which is why COVID and other infectious diseases are treated differently than smoking, drinking etc...

If my drinking had the possibility of causing disease in anybody standing near me - it would be a completely different story

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6 hours ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

All of that said, the only part of your post that I object to is the "certain level of preventable disease and death we should accept and move on with our lives" quote. I don't disagree that there is going to be preventable death, COVID related or otherwise. And every single one of them is a tragedy, so we should always be evaluating the cost:benefit and trying to save as many lives as possible, and if that lines up with a small number of preventable COVID deaths, then that's the best crappy option we have. But that's very different than "accept and move on".

I agree, although I would say save lives is not the only criteria. There are plenty of social, ethical, economic, etc. goals beyond overall population mortality rate that matter. 

By accept and move on I mean, for the average person, there will hopefully soon come a time when even if this is not eradicated it isn't something that registers on their daily life and behaviors. Just like flu has a minimal impact on people's day to day behaviors, despite 10s of thousands of deaths a year in the US from flu. Obviously we should do what we can on the research front and vaccine education to continue to improve mortality rates from flu, COVID, and other causes of death. But once mortality gets below some level it is no longer a global crisis. And that level is nowhere near zero. Hopefully we get a highly effective vaccine and by the middle of next year we are at that point.

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