Who is the better QB: Drew Brees or Jared Goff

[BayRaider]

Brees even at 40. Heck.. Brees should still be ranked 5 or 6 going into the 2020 NFL Season.

[sammymvpknight]

17 hours ago, stl4life07 said:

Ok so this thread needs to be locked because its ridiculous. People claiming Goff sucks and Goff is closer to Ryan Fitzpatrick. The same guy who is (33-14) over the past 3 seasons. (2-2) in the playoffs and led his team to the Superbowl. How many QBs have at least 33 wins over the past 3 seasons? In 2018 he had more 4th/OT comebacks than Drew Brees himself and in general was top 3 among QBs that season in 4th/OT comebacks. In true road games including the playoffs over the past 3 seasons Goff is (18-6). How many QBs have at least 18 true road playoff victories over the past 3 seasons? Like you dont have to like Goff or think he is elite or even great to realize thats impressive. Its not just all McVay or all the talent around him. Goff had alot to do with the success too. At this point those who arent giving Goff his due is just hating on him. 

Ill say it again, I think just on career resume alone and accomplishments Brees is the better QB, but it doesnt mean Goff isnt good. He is a top 10 QB imo. This past season while it wasnt Goff best season it showed me that even through his struggles if Zuerlein makes the FG in Seattle (which btw Goff lead the team down the field to put them in position to do so), the Rams wouldve had another 10+ win season and that says alot. So again this thread need to be lock because there are alot of no nonsense talk that sounds like hating to me for a guy that since the joke of a coach Fisher got fired has been a very successful QB. 

Has a better chance for being locked because the question is ludicrous...which the poll concluded. This is Ram fan vs everyone else

[tyler735]

2 hours ago, sammymvpknight said:

Has a better chance for being locked because the question is ludicrous...which the poll concluded. This is Ram fan vs everyone else

Agreed, this shouldn't have to be a thread, but when some Rams fans can't just point blank admit that Brees is unquestionably better than Goff without attempting to make silly justifications by saying things like "but their first 4 seasons", or "head2head".

I'm probably the biggest Alvin Kamara homer on this forum, but you don't hear me make claims like Alvin Kamara is better than Marshal Faulk through their first 3 seasons since Kamara had a higher ypc, more scrimmage yards, and more touchdowns. How silly is it to compare players stats on a 1 to 1 basis from different eras. It's essentially what is happening in here when people bring up Goff's stats vs Brees's stats to start their careers. 

[Dr A W Niloc]

And who is the better poet?  Dr. Seuss or William Shakespeare?

[LeotheLion]

1 hour ago, tyler735 said:

Agreed, this shouldn't have to be a thread, but when some Rams fans can't just point blank admit that Brees is unquestionably better than Goff without attempting to make silly justifications by saying things like "but their first 4 seasons", or "head2head".

I'm probably the biggest Alvin Kamara homer on this forum, but you don't hear me make claims like Alvin Kamara is better than Marshal Faulk through their first 3 seasons since Kamara had a higher ypc, more scrimmage yards, and more touchdowns. How silly is it to compare players stats on a 1 to 1 basis from different eras. It's essentially what is happening in here when people bring up Goff's stats vs Brees's stats to start their careers. 

Goff's first 4 years are unquestionably better than Brees. Brees essentially didn't play his rookie year. His next 3 years he ranked 24, 28, and 3 in QB rating. Goff's 2-4 years were 5, 8, and 22. So even in Goff's "mediocre" year it was still relatively better than what Brees did in years 2 and 3. 

With that said, it is a little naive to think that Goff will outperform Brees career because his first 4 years were better but it's equally naive to think he will just plateau on his 2019 season.

[tyler735]

49 minutes ago, LeotheLion said:

Goff's first 4 years are unquestionably better than Brees. Brees essentially didn't play his rookie year. His next 3 years he ranked 24, 28, and 3 in QB rating. Goff's 2-4 years were 5, 8, and 22. So even in Goff's "mediocre" year it was still relatively better than what Brees did in years 2 and 3. 

With that said, it is a little naive to think that Goff will outperform Brees career because his first 4 years were better but it's equally naive to think he will just plateau on his 2019 season.

Again it is incredibly flawed to compare QB's from different era's like this. Very few QB's were able to just enter the NFL and light it up compared to how the NFL landscape currently is with significantly more QB's pretty much stepping in and being NFL ready from the get go with how rules/offenses have changed over the years. Literally the last 2 seasons the MVP was a QB in their 1st full season as a starter.

Also your numbers for Brees and Goff tell a bit different story if you take first 4 seasons as a starter or even years 2-4 as starting QB's (Both had less than stellar 1st years as starters).

Brees years 1-4 as a starter QB Rating Rank: 24, 28, 3, 10

Goff years 1-4 as a starter QB Rating Rank: 38, 5, 8, 22

In other words, much like Goff, Brees had a rough 1st season as a starter, and Brees even had a poor 2nd season as a starter. However by year 3 as a starter, Brees turned the corner and continued to stay on positive career trajectory going forward. Goff has been up and down so far in his career. I don't think anyone has said he can't get back on track, but it's equally as naive to assume that he will. There are concerns about how he performs when he doesn't have an elite OL, and elite RB to take the pressure off of him. There are questions as to whether defenses have adjusted to his playstyle/Mcvay's system. Maybe he gets back on track, but given the sample size he has shown his past 20 or so games, I currently view him as a mediocre QB. Maybe he has a rebound year, but as of now I'm not betting on it.

 

As I mentioned in the previous response, a prime example with the roles reversed, no Saints fan is claiming Alvin Kamara had a better first 3 seasons than Marshal Faulk despite the numbers being better for Kamara over that period as it is just a silly argument given the different era's.

 

 

Edited March 25, 2020 by tyler735

[stl4life07]

31 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

As I mentioned in the previous response, a prime example with the roles reversed, no Saints fan is claiming Alvin Kamara had a better first 3 seasons than Marshal Faulk despite the numbers being better for Kamara over that period as it is just a silly argument given the different era's.

 

 

Did you factor in when talking about Faulk that he said it himself that when he first got into the league that he was a selfish player? You cant be a selfish player in a team sport and expect to put up great numbers. Thats the reason the Colts shipped him to St. Louis because the organization felt like Faulk was hurting the team because he was selfish. He said it himself that by the time he started to realize it was about the team and not him it was too late and he was in St. Louis and thats when he became a team player and was the great running back he ended up being. 

What Im saying about Brees is that you can talk about numbers but the main thing that jumps out to me is that the Chargers organization looked at Brees and thought he was playing so badly that they had to trade to get Rivers. If they thought Brees was going to be good they wouldve never did that. Sure the light switch came on but it was after the Chargers drafted Rivers and not before. Thats like saying Rosen is a better QB than Murray when in theory if he was why did the Cardinals trade him to draft Murray? Its not a knock on Brees either if anything I use Brees as a case study to show people they shouldnt give up on a QB after a year or two because the Chargers literally gave up on Brees entering his third season because they traded for Rivers. Im just saying you cant say Brees was better than Goff in his first 4 years when the Chargers organization through their actions were screaming "we are going to move on from Brees by drafting Rivers because Brees doesnt look like he is going to pan out". Meanwhile all Goff did was lead his team to an 11-5 record in his 2nd season then the next season go 13-3 and won a road game in the NFCCG to go to the Superbowl. Certainly the organization wasnt planning an exited strategy to move on from Goff by trading up to get Mahomes or Watson around that time. Again Im not trying to bash Brees because I really like Brees but Im saying there isnt any argument. Goff first 4 years easily better than Brees. As a career Brees is easily better than Goff and there is no argument. 

[LeotheLion]

40 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

Again it is incredibly flawed to compare QB's from different era's like this. Very few QB's were able to just enter the NFL and light it up compared to how the NFL landscape currently is with significantly more QB's pretty much stepping in and being NFL ready from the get go with how rules/offenses have changed over the years. Literally the last 2 seasons the MVP was a QB in their 1st full season as a starter.

Also your numbers for Brees and Goff tell a bit different story if you take first 4 seasons as a starter or even years 2-4 as starting QB's (Both had less than stellar 1st years as starters).

Brees years 1-4 as a starter QB Rating Rank: 24, 28, 3, 10

Goff years 1-4 as a starter QB Rating Rank: 38, 5, 8, 22

In other words, much like Goff, Brees had a rough 1st season as a starter, and Brees even had a poor 2nd season as a starter. However by year 3 as a starter, Brees turned the corner and continued to stay on positive career trajectory going forward. Goff has been up and down so far in his career. I don't think anyone has said he can't get back on track, but it's equally as naive to assume that he will. There are concerns about how he performs when he doesn't have an elite OL, and elite RB to take the pressure off of him. There are questions as to whether defenses have adjusted to his playstyle/Mcvay's system. Maybe he gets back on track, but given the sample size he has shown his past 20 or so games, I currently view him as a mediocre QB. Maybe he has a rebound year, but as of now I'm not betting on it.

 

As I mentioned in the previous response, a prime example with the roles reversed, no Saints fan is claiming Alvin Kamara had a better first 3 seasons than Marshal Faulk despite the numbers being better for Kamara over that period as it is just a silly argument given the different era's.

 

 

You are punishing Goff for starting games as a rookie. Goff was coming off a SB appearance in his 3rd year. The Chargers drafted Rivers after Brees 3rd year. It frankly isn't close through first 4 seasons unless you are literally only comparing their 4th season only.

[LeotheLion]

54 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

As I mentioned in the previous response, a prime example with the roles reversed, no Saints fan is claiming Alvin Kamara had a better first 3 seasons than Marshal Faulk despite the numbers being better for Kamara over that period as it is just a silly argument given the different era's.

Maybe YOU aren't making that argument but we had a 90+ page thread where a loud minority was arguing that Kamara was one of the best backs in the league. Faulk wasn't in the conversation for best back in the league during his first 3 years so I'm sure people would argue Kamara's first 3 were better. It's a lot closer of a comparsion than between Goff and Brees. And FWIW I think Kamara's first 3 were better. Wasn't alive to watch Faulk but when you compare stats relative to the other backs in the league during that time, Kamara's seasons are much more impressive.

Edited March 25, 2020 by LeotheLion

[tyler735]

1 hour ago, LeotheLion said:

You are punishing Goff for starting games as a rookie.

As mentioned I already stated why it was flawed to compare the 2 early on in their careers. Much easier in today's NFL for a QB to plug and play and put up numbers. Regardless you can see I even mentioned using their 2nd-4th seasons as starters to compare that stat. What really gets at me is so many Rams fans make the statement that Jeff Fisher is to blame for Goff's struggles as a rookie, which I for the most part agree with, but some people don't seem to do the same for young Brees during his time with the Chargers where his best WR's were post suspension David Boston, 34 year old Keenan McCardell, and Eric Parker playing in an offense that wasn't really that imaginative in comparison to offenses like Sean Payton's/Sean Mcvay's 

Quote

Goff was coming off a SB appearance in his 3rd year.

Goff's team was coming off a Super Bowl appearance in his 3rd year. That one always cracks me up. It disregards a great coach, elite OL, elite RB, quality WR group, and defense with probably the best defender in the league. Goff did have a good regular season that year (overall), but undoubtedly started to fall off towards the end of the season with some inconsistent performances. It was around the time that he played the Lions in 2018, he started to become really inconsistent ever since. Goff had 1 touchdown, 2 interceptions, 2 fumbles and a 71 QB Rating in 3 postseason games during the Rams 2018 Super Bowl season. In today's NFL those numbers are well below average. More concerning is that he continued this downward spiral in 2019 with a QB Rating that ranked 22nd in the NFL this past season.

 

Quote

The Chargers drafted Rivers after Brees 3rd year. It frankly isn't close through first 4 seasons unless you are literally only comparing their 4th season only.

Thankfully they did, or the past 15 years as a Saints fan would have been much worse for me.

In all seriousness, I think this is a make or break year for Goff, if plays like he did last season, I think we have a pretty good idea of what his career trajectory is as a middle of the pack QB, if he plays closer to his 2017/2018 level, he probably is viewed as bordeline top 10 QB going forward. He has some big questions to answer without Gurley, and an OL that probably won't be at the elite level it once was, and if teams have gotten a better grasp on how to defend against Goff/Mcvay's system.

Edited March 25, 2020 by tyler735

[rocky_rams]

5 hours ago, Dr A W Niloc said:

And who is the better poet?  Dr. Seuss or William Shakespeare?

Dr Seuss duh

[LeotheLion]

2 hours ago, tyler735 said:

As mentioned I already stated why it was flawed to compare the 2 early on in their careers. Much easier in today's NFL for a QB to plug and play and put up numbers. 

So maybe the QBs in today's NFL have better starts to their careers than prior eras. The question was who had a better first four years. The answer is Goff. Again, it isn't very close.

[tyler735]

1 hour ago, LeotheLion said:

So maybe the QBs in today's NFL have better starts to their careers than prior eras. The question was who had a better first four years. The answer is Goff. Again, it isn't very close.

Apples to Oranges.

[LeotheLion]

13 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

Apples to Oranges.

I can't tell if you are trolling or actually believe any of your nonsense. Regardless, not worth anymore of my time. 

[tyler735]

1 hour ago, LeotheLion said:

I can't tell if you are trolling or actually believe any of your nonsense. Regardless, not worth anymore of my time. 

Bye. Please take your ball and go home. At least there you can continue your delusions about Goff's greatness after having the 22nd best QB Rating in the NFL this past year.