What's A Question You Would Ask Ryan Pace Right Now

[AZBearsFan]

37 minutes ago, soulman said:

You're the draft guru around here but two potential 2nd rounders who've been attributed to Chicago are LT Ezra Cleveland/BSU and OC/OG Lloyd Cushenberry/LSU.  Both are ranked in that #40 to #60 range where we draft.

Cleveland sounds like a slightly bigger version of Leno who can pass block but probably fits only as a LT in a zone running scheme.

Cushenberry is kind of interesting in that he has that positional versatility and arm length we seem to like.

I like Cushenberry quite a bit if we draft a RG whose already an interior OL. I like RT Isaiah Wilson from Georgia in round 2 being able to slide inside to RG, and Ben Bartch a bit lower to do the same should we trade back. I could see Wilson potentially sliding back out to RT once Massie is gone. I think Bartch is a guard only due to less than ideal length.

If I’m doing it I’m taking someone to start at RG in round 2 or 3 (if we trade back) and then in round 5-6 a guy to potentially start at OT next year while filling a swing role in 2020. In that latter range I like 2 NFL bloodline guys in Charlie Heck (Andy’s son) and Jon Runyan (Jon’s son). 

[soulman]

12 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

I like Cushenberry quite a bit if we draft a RG whose already an interior OL. I like RT Isaiah Wilson from Georgia in round 2 being able to slide inside to RG, and Ben Bartch a bit lower to do the same should we trade back. I could see Wilson potentially sliding back out to RT once Massie is gone. I think Bartch is a guard only due to less than ideal length.

If I’m doing it I’m taking someone to start at RG in round 2 or 3 (if we trade back) and then in round 5-6 a guy to potentially start at OT next year while filling a swing role in 2020. In that latter range I like 2 NFL bloodline guys in Charlie Heck (Andy’s son) and Jon Runyan (Jon’s son). 

I'm thinking along the same lines as you.  I liked what little I saw of Bars as an OT and FWIW I though Coward played better as an OT than as an OG and despite both needing a lot of work either could be a swing OL so I'd draft the best OG I could find to pair with Whitehair and Daniels and fix up that interior so Montgomery has an OL he can run behind.

We can't even get close to the better OTs this year but IMHO that will push even more of the OG prospects into rounds two and three.  My other concern is college OTs seem to be much slower to develop in the pros than OGs so either keep drafting them on day three and develop a couple or wait 'til we have a pick that allows us to draft a top prospect.

[DABEARSLCF04]

I would ask what he was smoking and where can i get some if he thought that was a good contract offer to Jimmy FREAKING Graham

[soulman]

8 minutes ago, DABEARSLCF04 said:

I would ask what he was smoking and where can i get some if he thought that was a good contract offer to Jimmy FREAKING Graham

I dunno but he didn't call me for my recommendations.  I could have sent him some choice bud to try.  LOL

I kinda covered the Graham deal elsewhere.  It's not as bad as it seems based on having needed desperately to fill a need at TE.

Graham's 2020 cap hit is just $6 mil.  $3 mil salary and $3 mil of a $6 mil SB.  The release of both Shaheen (almost assured) and Braunecker (likely) pretty much cover that $3 mil salary leaving a net cost of just $3 mil or so.  They won't pay him $7 mil in 2021 so he'll be released and we'll take a $3 mil dead cap hit but in a year when we can better afford it.

Call it one years worth of insurance for the TE position when injuries have completely unraveled your previous plan.

[SLCbear]

my question would be:  How are we going to establos a dam running game ??! Have to be able to run the ball in the NFL in first place 

[SLCbear]

7 hours ago, WindyCity said:

At this point I think you have to double dip. 2nd and 5th round.

Put the rookies, Coward, and Bars into a mixer and see who wins.

With a shortened offseason however I can concerned about getting rookies ready to play.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if we used both 2s on OL. I would welcome that ! 

[WindyCity]

4 hours ago, SLCbear said:

I wouldn't be surprised at all if we used both 2s on OL. I would welcome that ! 

That is my dream scenario.

 

[soulman]

Since we're only imagining all of this my first question might be.

Ryan, is Ted Phillips as big of an imbecile as I think he is or does he actually know something about football?

[vegas492]

I would ask to see the picture Jimmy Graham has of him...and ask that he explain the context...  was he at the circus and the clown found him?  At a barnyard and felt lonely?  

[soulman]

1 hour ago, vegas492 said:

I would ask to see the picture Jimmy Graham has of him...and ask that he explain the context...  was he at the circus and the clown found him?  At a barnyard and felt lonely?  

We kinda been through this now a couple of times.

The key was getting a deal done that fit within whatever budget Pace had to fill that TE hole with at least one vet TE he could depend on.

Graham's 2020 cap hit is only $6 mil and all of his gtd $$$ is paid out in 2020 so we can release him next year rather than pay him $7 mil and take a $3 mil dead cap hit in 2021 when it's more affordable.  Yeah, $9 mil is a lot to pay for an insurance policy on Burton's health but that's what happens when your plans at TE get phuc'd up by injuries.  You do what you have to in order to assure 2020 won't look like 2019 at TE.

Besides if we cut both Shaheen and Braunecker which is pretty likely that will save nearly $3 mil in cap and cover Graham's 2020 salary.  When you look at it that way his cost is about $6 mil divided into two years.  That's more the way they're gonna look at it internally.

[vegas492]

3 minutes ago, soulman said:

We kinda been through this now a couple of times.

The key was getting a deal done that fit within whatever budget Pace had to fill that TE hole with at least one vet TE he could depend on.

Graham's 2020 cap hit is only $6 mil and all of his gtd $$$ is paid out in 2020 so we can release him next year rather than pay him $7 mil and take a $3 mil dead cap hit in 2021 when it's more affordable.  Yeah, $9 mil is a lot to pay for an insurance policy on Burton's health but that's what happens when your plans at TE get phuc'd up by injuries.  You do what you have to in order to assure 2020 won't look like 2019 at TE.

Besides if we cut both Shaheen and Braunecker which is pretty likely that will save nearly $3 mil in cap and cover Graham's 2020 salary.  When you look at it that way his cost is about $6 mil divided into two years.  That's more the way they're gonna look at it internally.

GB is paying him $3M this year in dead money.

As a free agent signing, you are already resigned to the fact that you will pay him $3M in 2021 to not be on your team.

That is what is confusing to me regarding Graham.  Teams like yours and mine are fine paying him to get the heck off of the roster.  And that is not a good business model.

Don't worry about production, what you have on the roster will easily replace what he gives you this year.  It's hard not to do that.  

If you want proof, look at the Packers this year with a no-name squad of TE's.  Guessing the position actually increases in production because it is hard to do worse.

I get one year deals for guys like Graham.  I don't understand anything longer because you are just setting yourself up for dead cap.  Guess I don't feel like there was going to be a "bidding war" for Graham, but who knows, there could have been another team out there starved for a TE and remember Jimmy from 2011.

[soulman]

47 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

GB is paying him $3M this year in dead money.

As a free agent signing, you are already resigned to the fact that you will pay him $3M in 2021 to not be on your team.

That is what is confusing to me regarding Graham.  Teams like yours and mine are fine paying him to get the heck off of the roster.  And that is not a good business model.

Don't worry about production, what you have on the roster will easily replace what he gives you this year.  It's hard not to do that.  

If you want proof, look at the Packers this year with a no-name squad of TE's.  Guessing the position actually increases in production because it is hard to do worse.

I get one year deals for guys like Graham.  I don't understand anything longer because you are just setting yourself up for dead cap.  Guess I don't feel like there was going to be a "bidding war" for Graham, but who knows, there could have been another team out there starved for a TE and remember Jimmy from 2011.

In both cases that money was spent in cash upfront but for cap purposes it's spread out over the life of the deal  strictly for accounting purposes. It's the unamortized amount from his SB.  You have to count it eventually but when you do is at least somewhat dictated by the structure of the contract.  Every team in the NFL does the exact same thing pushing cap costs down the road just as we as consumers buy things now we pay for later.  It's the American way. 

So no one is paying cash for anyone to leave.  They're only accounting for what they've already paid him upfront to sign for cap purposes and when a player is released before his deal is up all unamortized amounts are charged against the cap.  This is the NFL were talking about.  They're a monopoly and practically have a license to print money.  So while it may not be a good business model for Mike and Moe's Machine Shop it works fine in the NFL as long as the cap keeps going up each year.

As for the rest.  GB will do what GB does and we'll do what we do.  We tried a bunch of no name TEs last year and the offense struggled because it's a key position in Nagy's schemes and those we could play weren't experienced enough to handle the entire playbook they needed to know.  So again Graham is insurance against that happening again primarily based on Burton's inability to return at 100%. IMHO spending what we did to sign Graham casts doubt on that actually happening.

Essentially it is a one year deal.  The 2nd year was added only in order to stretch out the cap accounting for his SB.  I don't believe we have any plans at all of paying him a $7 mil salary in 2021.  So his cap cost to us for 2020 is only $6 mil.  Based on our cap situation for us that number was affordable and $9 mil was not.  The unaffordable part was pushed out a year to 2021 when the cap should rise another $20-$25 mil and we take the $3 mil dead cap hit then.  It's a non-cash expense charged only against the cap.

I have no idea whether or not another team was interested.  It seem to me like either Pace said this is what we can offer take it or leave it or Graham's agent gave him a number which Pace agreed to provided he could structure the deal to his advantage.  That's all we really know and all we're likely ever to know.  Pace needed a top receiving TE and Graham even at his age can still do that better than anyone we had last year and unless Burton returns also better than anyone we're likely to have this year.  He filled a major need.

Edited March 23, 2020 by soulman

[WindyCity]

Honestly, I would want to know what he has learned from the Trubisky mess about evaluating QBs?

[vegas492]

26 minutes ago, soulman said:

Pace needed a top receiving TE and Graham even at his age can still do that better than anyone we had last year and unless Burton returns also better than anyone we're likely to have this year.  He filled a major need.

I get how the cap works.  I just cannot justify how it keeps working and helping out the James Graham's of the world.  BTW...he's not named Jimmy.  Jimmies can run.  When you move as poorly as he does, you are called James.

Here is the "rub".  

James Graham, 2019.  #20 in the NFL for catches with 38.  #18 in yards with 447.  Tied for #19 with 3 TD's.

That's year two with Aaron Rodgers and what we were led to believe was an offense that targets tight ends.  Oh...and only one other receiving threat.

It was not pretty.

Maybe it is better than what you had on the roster.  But it's still not good.  Dude was contemplating retirement in the off-season, then inks a deal with $9M of guarantees.  

The reality is this...it's just a bad spend of money/cap.  Unless you are James or his agent.

 

[beardown3231]

19 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

I get how the cap works.  I just cannot justify how it keeps working and helping out the James Graham's of the world.  BTW...he's not named Jimmy.  Jimmies can run.  When you move as poorly as he does, you are called James.

Here is the "rub".  

James Graham, 2019.  #20 in the NFL for catches with 38.  #18 in yards with 447.  Tied for #19 with 3 TD's.

That's year two with Aaron Rodgers and what we were led to believe was an offense that targets tight ends.  Oh...and only one other receiving threat.

It was not pretty.

Maybe it is better than what you had on the roster.  But it's still not good.  Dude was contemplating retirement in the off-season, then inks a deal with $9M of guarantees.  

The reality is this...it's just a bad spend of money/cap.  Unless you are James or his agent.

 

Is it possible Rodgers doesn't really look at TE's? You list how Graham was 18th in this and 19th in that. Where was he in targets? It could be low because he sucks so Rodgers never targeted him, but it also seems that since Jermichael Finley, Rodgers hasn't looked at TE's much at all. Even Jared Cook left there and had success elsewhere.

I know Graham sucks, trust me, but maybe he wasn't given a big opportunity. Could be because he sucks, could be because Rodgers didn't look at him much.