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turtle28

Redskins sign former Giants WR, Cody Latimer

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Doc Draper said:

Picture your investment portfolio: well don’t look  now for at least another couple months, if I said you will increase the portfolio by 67% to 133% in the first year would you be happy?  This is the honeymoon year for Rivera where I Drink, Boink, and Smile at how much/improved better we are from last year. 
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and since we are all shut-ins- I love this clip on predicting games 

 

Sadly, The honeymoon seems already over for a lot of fans before we’ve even played a game this year. Just look at the post below yours and the one above mine.

Edited by turtle28

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3 hours ago, turtle28 said:

Sadly, The honeymoon seems already over for a lot of fans before we’ve even played a game this year. Just look at the post below yours and the one above mine.

There was never a honeymoon to begin with. Rivera was never my top choice but I was happy to be rid of Bruce. Once they had his press conference and announced Rivera would have full roster control I realized we were back at square one. It’s the same thing all over again. 

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16 minutes ago, lavar703 said:

There was never a honeymoon to begin with. Rivera was never my top choice but I was happy to be rid of Bruce. Once they had his press conference and announced Rivera would have full roster control I realized we were back at square one. It’s the same thing all over again. 

My gosh dude, your opinions have become unbearable compared to where you were before free agency started. It's like Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde.

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2 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

My gosh dude, your opinions have become unbearable compared to where you were before free agency started. It's like Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde.

My opinions are unbearable because I’m not buying into what they’re doing? This team badly needed a GM. Like more so than any other team in the league this team needed a stable voice running the daily operation. I can voice my displeasure with Snyder’s decision to give another headcoach full control. If it works out, great but we’ve been down this road before and did so with much better coaches than Rivera. 

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5 minutes ago, lavar703 said:

My opinions are unbearable because I’m not buying into what they’re doing? This team badly needed a GM. Like more so than any other team in the league this team needed a stable voice running the daily operation. I can voice my displeasure with Snyder’s decision to give another headcoach full control. If it works out, great but we’ve been down this road before and did so with much better coaches than Rivera. 

Welcome to the small minority that called this signing what it was when it happened.  

I'm still waiting for the inevitable hire of Rick Smith into the front office when this starts to go sideways.  Smith was the other person that Snyder had in-depth discussions with about taking over the Redskins, but decided to go with a "coach centered approach" which really doesn't work unless you are Bill Belichick.  What I found out is that a "collaborative approach" works best, when the coach and GM are hired around the same time, and they may also come with some experience working together.  Coach centered approaches rarely work out, because there is no balancing the "now" with the needs of the future.  We all saw clear as day how that worked with Joe Gibbs and ignoring the draft.  

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

Welcome to the small minority that called this signing what it was when it happened.  

I'm still waiting for the inevitable hire of Rick Smith into the front office when this starts to go sideways.  Smith was the other person that Snyder had in-depth discussions with about taking over the Redskins, but decided to go with a "coach centered approach" which really doesn't work unless you are Bill Belichick.  What I found out is that a "collaborative approach" works best, when the coach and GM are hired around the same time, and they may also come with some experience working together.  Coach centered approaches rarely work out, because there is no balancing the "now" with the needs of the future.  We all saw clear as day how that worked with Joe Gibbs and ignoring the draft.  

We had that when we had Bruce Allen but that didn’t work either.

We’ll find out in time, and I don’t know whether this will work out in the long run or not, but not giving Rivera & his group of coaches a chance to develop this young roster in their image before they even get started seems disingenuous.

Edited by turtle28

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1 hour ago, turtle28 said:

We had that when we had Bruce Allen but that didn’t work either.

We’ll find out in time, and I don’t know whether this will work out in the long run or not, but not giving Rivera & his group of coaches a chance to develop this young roster in their image before they even get started seems disingenuous.

Yes but none of us realized just how little Bruce knew about running an organization. I certainly didn’t. Not to mention coming from Vinnies reign of terror it was almost impossible to fathom it could be worse. 
 

I didn’t want Rick Smith. Either just name Kyle Smith GM and give him full control or go out and get someone else to have full control. Don’t give it to a coach with almost no experience building a roster. We just signed a guy who basically hasn’t played football in two years because his dad is a coach on the team. I’d venture to say three of the guys we’ve signed probably wouldn’t be in the league had we not done so. This team needed a strong GM in place with a good scouting background to build this team. We chose to go in the opposite direction again. 

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1 minute ago, lavar703 said:

Yes but none of us realized just how little Bruce knew about running an organization. I certainly didn’t. Not to mention coming from Vinnies reign of terror it was almost impossible to fathom it could be worse. 
 

I didn’t want Rick Smith. Either just name Kyle Smith GM and give him full control or go out and get someone else to have full control. Don’t give it to a coach with almost no experience building a roster. We just signed a guy who basically hasn’t played football in two years because his dad is a coach on the team. I’d venture to say three of the guys we’ve signed probably wouldn’t be in the league had we not done so. This team needed a strong GM in place with a good scouting background to build this team. We chose to go in the opposite direction again. 

I think we need to open up to the possibility that this is how Kyle Smith wants a Team run and remember that his father AJ Smith ran the Chargers like this last decade. 

Kyle has been here for almost an entire decade and his father before him and both worked under Bruce Allen for almost all of this decade. 
 

It should shock no one what we are signing similar level free agents this offseason as we did the previous 6 offseason’s and that Kyle brought back Kendall Fuller - a player he helped scout and draft - as well. It should shock no-one that we are mostly bottom feeding signing in free agency and looking to build w/ a young team that we currently have and build mostly through the draft as we've been doing since 2014.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, turtle28 said:

I think we need to open up to the possibility that this is how Kyle Smith wants a Team run and remember that his father AJ Smith ran the Chargers like this last decade. 

Kyle has been here for almost an entire decade and his father before him and both worked under Bruce Allen for almost all of this decade. 
 

It should shock no one what we are signing similar level free agents this offseason as we did the previous 6 offseason’s and that Kyle brought back Kendall Fuller - a player he helped scout and draft - as well. It should shock no-one that we are mostly bottom feeding signing in free agency and looking to build w/ a young team that we currently have and build mostly through the draft as we've been doing since 2014.

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What happens with talent like Scherff, Allen and Payne when it's time to be resigned? Do they choose to stay with a team that's rebuilding/not winning enough games to make the playoffs or move on? We see Scherff had to be tagged and we've heard nothing about them working on a long-term deal. Smart teams take advantage of this Talent while it's still young and on Cheaper Deals. 

I just don't get how they were ready to give Cooper 100 million plus got turned down and than decided let's only go for backups/older Vets. Fuller is the only young long-term signing and as you mentioned Smith probably played more of a role in that than Rivera. This offseason has been a shock to me Seriously. This can't be the plan next offseason more than likely with a top 10 pick in the 1st 3 rounds of the draft and top 10 in Cap Space to spend in Free Agency. 

 

Edited by Skins212689

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, naptownskinsfan said:

Welcome to the small minority that called this signing what it was when it happened.  

I'm still waiting for the inevitable hire of Rick Smith into the front office when this starts to go sideways.  Smith was the other person that Snyder had in-depth discussions with about taking over the Redskins, but decided to go with a "coach centered approach" which really doesn't work unless you are Bill Belichick.  What I found out is that a "collaborative approach" works best, when the coach and GM are hired around the same time, and they may also come with some experience working together.  Coach centered approaches rarely work out, because there is no balancing the "now" with the needs of the future.  We all saw clear as day how that worked with Joe Gibbs and ignoring the draft.  

Not to go full quant nerd on you, but the math doesn’t support your contention. Let me define “coach centered” as being a philosophy supported by a decision making structure where the head coach exercises more power than a GM/Director of Player Personnel over the players acquired and rosters selected. Conversely, the more prevalent approach ( since the 1980’s)  is “GM oriented “ where the GM or owner posing as GM ( Dallas Sissy’s) exercises more power than the “coach centered” model.  Both models are collaborative to varying degrees as every NFL has both a head coach and a person who supports fulfilling the traditional responsibilities of a GM/Director of Player Personnel. The key difference is who has the power to make the final decision. Agree? 
 

using 2019- of course that’s not an adequate sample size, but I believe it makes the point for those who haven’t already tuned out when I wrote math instead thinking why isn’t Doc writing about the the fact that a guy in a bar at 2am has a far better statistical chance pulling a girl with the larger breast size vs the one with the smaller size by a factor of 3- which is Doc’s rules of life number 12. But I digress: there were 4 teams in the NFL that were primarily coach centered approach- NE, KC,Oakland,New Orleans. The head coach had final say. There were 28 teams that didn’t. Now I can understand your assertion because we have seen high profile failures in the coach centric model- Bill Parcells and Shanny with the Redskins ( an organizational anomaly  in inself since Snyder bought the team). 
 

Do I need to run the comparable win/losses for the coach centric vs GM centric model or have you succumbed?

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Now for some history Brothers- the idea of a GM centered approach didn’t gain real popularity until the late 80’s. Owners had this control from the beginning to say the mid 50’s where it evolved to head coach centric until the 80’s where it transitioned to GM centric- Now I see It beginning to evolve again. Sure there were anomalies like the Steelers and Giants where it moved directly to GM centric from owner in the 80’s, and others like the 49ers who stayed coach centric through the early 90’s. What can we conclude based on the data?
- Historically the power for player acquisition has changed over time,

-success has been achieved with owner, coach and GM centric models

- in 2019- wins vs losses in the head coaching centric model was significantly higher than other models,

Final thoughts: perhaps it’s not the decision making model that determines success- but  the people who are making the decisions? 

class dismissed. Doc out! 

Edited by Doc Draper

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@Doc Draper I get what you are saying with the other coach-centered approaches, but I would argue they are collaborative efforts.  Reid hired a bunch of former Philadelphia front office guys when he came to KC, and there are no reports of him exacting his influence despite what others are saying.  Jon Gruden has an iron-clad 10 year deal with full control, but he hired Mayock to run the show right after he came on board, so they are working together, similar to Pete Carroll and John Schneider in Seattle.   And in New Orleans, Mickey Loomis has been the GM since 2002.  

It's those collaborative efforts that people falsely lump together with the coach-centered approach.  

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1 hour ago, naptownskinsfan said:

@Doc Draper I get what you are saying with the other coach-centered approaches, but I would argue they are collaborative efforts.  Reid hired a bunch of former Philadelphia front office guys when he came to KC, and there are no reports of him exacting his influence despite what others are saying.  Jon Gruden has an iron-clad 10 year deal with full control, but he hired Mayock to run the show right after he came on board, so they are working together, similar to Pete Carroll and John Schneider in Seattle.   And in New Orleans, Mickey Loomis has been the GM since 2002.  

It's those collaborative efforts that people falsely lump together with the coach-centered approach.  

You can’t cherry pick. You did this the last time this came up. The Redskins under Gibbs & now under Rivera were/are also collaborative efforts, heck, so in NE w/ Belicheck. There are front office personnel people, the coach just has the final say. 
 

And it’s also how you define “working?” We’ve seen coaches go on multiple long playoff runs & super bowl runs when they had final call and had front office personnel help him do all the work but he got the final call.

I’d consider some of those coaches a success for example like Holmgren in Seattle. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Skins212689 said:

What happens with talent like Scherff, Allen and Payne when it's time to be resigned? Do they choose to stay with a team that's rebuilding/not winning enough games to make the playoffs or move on? We see Scherff had to be tagged and we've heard nothing about them working on a long-term deal. Smart teams take advantage of this Talent while it's still young and on Cheaper Deals. 

I just don't get how they were ready to give Cooper 100 million plus got turned down and than decided let's only go for backups/older Vets. Fuller is the only young long-term signing and as you mentioned Smith probably played more of a role in that than Rivera. This offseason has been a shock to me Seriously. This can't be the plan next offseason more than likely with a top 10 pick in the 1st 3 rounds of the draft and top 10 in Cap Space to spend in Free Agency. 

 

I don’t know but over the last several years the Redskins have shown they’re willing to keep their best that they’ve drafted - besides Cousins - so, I’d guess that if Allen, Payne etc continue to play we’ll that we’ll make every effort to re-sign them and it’ll be their choice if they want to stay or not, that’s why they call it Free Agency! It’s the players choice whether to sign or not.

I am not shocked by this free agency period. I honestly didn’t know what to expect w/ a new regime and so much young talent on the team that needed to be developed to see if we could be a winner with them. I could have seen us spending a lot on free agency and I could have seen us do what we’ve done which is sign bargain guys and to give our young developing talent every chance to develop and see what they can do w/ better coaching. Make no mistake, we have a lot of young talent that McCloughan in 2015 & 16 and Kyle Smith & his team have assembled on this roster since 2016 but, we haven’t seen them be fully developed or coached by as good of cow CB was as we have right now.

I don’t blame Ron & Jack for wanting to get a crack at this young roster to see what they can get out of it first before spending a lot on vets in free agency. I would have signed a better vet WR, a better TE, Corey Littleton and a 2nd CB but the rest I would’ve done the same thing.

But also, just bc I wanted to do that doesn’t mean it was going to happen either. Again, free agents are free to sign where they want, just bc we want them to sign with us and we offer them a contract doesn’t mean they’ll chose to sign with us.

Edited by turtle28

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8 hours ago, turtle28 said:

You can’t cherry pick. You did this the last time this came up. The Redskins under Gibbs & now under Rivera were/are also collaborative efforts, heck, so in NE w/ Belicheck. There are front office personnel people, the coach just has the final say. 
 

And it’s also how you define “working?” We’ve seen coaches go on multiple long playoff runs & super bowl runs when they had final call and had front office personnel help him do all the work but he got the final call.

I’d consider some of those coaches a success for example like Holmgren in Seattle. 

Holmgren was fired as GM three years into the job, so no, he wasn't successful in Seattle as a personnel guy.  

He's a primary reason why I hate it when coaches have other roles.  Playcalling is another.  I'm a strong believer that you hire an OC/DC to plan and execute the offense.  Let them do it and call plays.  You be the leader of the team and players and coaches.  Meet with them, get to know them, etc.  Same with the personnel.  The front office and GM are there for a reason.  Leaders lead effective by "doing what only you can do."  A head coach has so much to do that they shouldn't be worried about these other things, and it's been proven that very few can navigate those waters successfully.  But those that do have a proven system that works, such as Bill Belichick, or they have been hired alongside people who they trust working together with.  

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