The Lions, my view.

[diehardlionfan]

I apologize for the length of this post. Most of us have time on our hands. Some of us, more than others.🤠

I no longer recall if I started cheering for the Lions in 62 or 63. My family is from Missouri and I grew up in Edmonton, Alberta. My Dad was a Vikings fan, my closest Uncle a Bears man. I chose the Lions, not by default but loyalty. In those days there wasn’t an NHL draft. The teams had protected areas and Edmonton was Red Wings country. The older boys I grew up watching, Norm Ullman, Johnny Bucyk, Ed Joyal, Bruce McGregor all played for or were traded by the Wings. To this day Norm Ullman is still my favourite player. 

So my history of being a Lions fan is long. Had anyone ever told me that approaching my 64th birthday my team would’ve never played in the big game I would’ve laughed in their face. Over time my view changed to the belief they had to eventually play in the big game to the reality that’s it’s no longer likely in my lifetime.

I have watched almost every star player leave the organization early due to free agency or unexpected retirement. We have just witnessed another situation involving Slay being traded because two men couldn’t overcome their differences. It’s these occurrences that have frustrated me the most over the years. 

I’m not a Patricia fan. While I understood Quinn’s thinking when he fired JC, he lost me when he hired a head coach without head coaching experience. 

JC was a good coach. I’ve seen some of you refer to him as a players coach. If that means he treated players with respect, sincerity, and didn’t ridicule or humiliate them, then, he’s a players coach. I simply thought of him as a good man and a good coach. He also had the best record of any Lions tenured HC since  Buddy Parker in the 50’s. So he was the winningest coach in my LIFE!

In return we got an unproven HC, from the BB coaching tree using techniques that are generally unsuccessful when the coach is unproven. He’s not BB.

Don’t misunderstand. I supported Quinn’s decision when he let Caldwell go. I simply feel that to date he’s failed to deliver. That’s largely due to Patricia. I understand his idea of culture change. I lived it personally in the late 70’s and witnessed its complete failure. I lived culture change again in the early 90’s. This time to the benefit of everyone. 

I fully understand TL’s point about dark workplaces. I’m a retired air traffic controller and our sense of humour would shock many people. However that workplace has undergone significant change since the early 90’s and what used to pass for good natured ribbing will get managers escorted out of the building.

Sure the style works for BB. It’s who he is and what he’s done since he became a HC. It’s demonstrated repeatedly that he can deliver if the players buy in. It’s simply credibility. But coaches trying to copy his style likely won’t have success because they have little credibility. In Patricias case his credibility seems to be questionable. That coaching/management style simply doesn’t work with many people. You significantly reduce the talent pool if one of the qualities you seek is someone willing to work in that environment productively. Of course it can be done but I haven’t seen evidence that Patricia understands the nuance required to operate that way. His lack of flexibility is indicative of someone lacking in management skills. Or, is a poor coach.

So, thats where I’m coming from. Some might call me jaded, cynical or a hater. I can buy the first two but not the second. In that vein I call it experience. 

So with that in mind here’s my views of the free agency period. 

The Slay trade. Once again the Lions managed to turn an asset into a liability. Or how to piss off your best defensive player Patricia style. Humiliate him in front of his team mates and don’t give him a worthy extension offer. A second round, elite player gone for a poor return. 

Desmond Trufant, I like the signing. Trufant is a quality player but the reality is that he’s mitigation for the Lions Slay situation. I think it also increases the likelihood Okudah is the pick in round one.

Jamie Collins.  I have mixed feelings. On the positive side he can cover TE and RB which was a major deficiency of the defence last year. He knows Patricia and the scheme. However I’m always nervous about NE cast offs. There’s a reason BB has let him walk. There’s potential for this to be a good signing but it could also be a disaster.

HV....I’m using his initials because frankly I’m not going to invest the effort to spell his name correct. So, he can run block. That’s great but he’s a liability in pass protection. I get they want to run the ball. They also have to throw it. Had they signed him as a backup fine, but not at 10 million per year. For a team that values position flexibility this one is a head scratcher. They’ve committed starter money to a tackle that needs help in the passing game. 

Nick Williams. Not exactly a household name. A rotational piece. 

Chase Daniel. It’s about time they signed a backup that can win a game. If Stafford goes down they have a legit8mate backup. Probably the best signing in free agency by Detroit.

Danny Shelton. A worthy addition that didn’t break the bank. Good against the run but not much for generating pressure. A replacement for Snacks but the team still needs a penetrating DT.

Tony McRae. A special teamer. 

Duron Harmon trade. Reasonable contract, reasonable acquisition cost. If he can continue his level of play he’s a positive addition. Comes with the standard warning about ex Patriots.

Jayron Kearse. Depth and special teams. Not exciting but the type of move required to fill out the roster and create competition.

Overall not much to get excited about. For the most part just rearranging chairs and changing the names on the jerseys.

I’m not impressed with what they’ve done on offence outside of BU QB. Questions at RB. No significant improvement to the oline and questions at RG.

The defence still lacks pass rush and given the player movement in the secondary it looks very likely Okudah should be the pick.

On defence I don’t believe they’ve improved the line, certainly not the pass rush. 

LB looks to be improved in coverage which was a terrible problem last year. 

The secondary has potential if the Harmon trade works. There’s a big hole at CB which they seem to recognize given reports they tried to sign Bradberry. On the positive his signing with the Giants might eliminate a CB from round one for the Giants. If Okudah is the Lions target that’s a plus. If they fill the CB position and Harmon works then the secondary will improve.

Overall I’m pretty neutral on free agency. My big concern is oline and pass rush.(also the Patriots cast offs)

A trade down with Miami or the Chargers would be the best move however it remains to be seen if Quinn can find a dance partner. If they can somehow manage 5 or 6 picks in the top 90 selections they have a tremendous opportunity to round out the roster.

CB/OT/DE or DT in the first two rounds followed by a RB and WR later would be a good outcome dependant on selections.

Perhaps they tried to sign Conklin and failed but his signing would’ve alleviated a large chunk of oline problems. They had the money. They still have the money! I view it as a lost opportunity.

So that’s my take. Hopefully some understand a bit better where Im coming from.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[flyguy1609]

nicely done. ive been a fan since 89 and its been hard lately. 

i dont mind the big V contract.i get it hes not a huge "difference-maker" on the line but hes young enough(26) to grow into a solid starter. he finished FF's 26th-highest grade among 88 qualified offensive tackles in 2019. its better then what Wagner right?

i actually like the Collins signing. doesn't movie Davis(he had a problem covering imo) and Collins is better so that helps like you pointed out.

also i feel that the lions will sign a rb(d. freema/r. freeman or trade for Lindsay) or something but they will make a move.

i dont think they thought Conklin  would have signed for what he did.

for the draft esp after the Tua video came out i def can see us trading down at least once. in the other thread i brought up the jags as a sleeper to move up to  3(9th- brown), Ngakoue and 3rd round pick)

 

 

[detroitroar]

Great post.

To play devils advocate here for the defensive decisions:

1. Slay, I believe, was a little sensitive. Theres nothing wrong with pushing your best players to be even better. I'd have zero problem with MP riding Stafford.

2. That, plus the fact Slay was already paid as a top 5 cb, suggests to me they collectively decided the money plus draft capitol would be better overall for a defense with multiple holes. I wish we had mustered a 2nd, but oh well.

3. I think Shelton will be a noticable upgrade from what Snacks was last year. He deserves a tad more credit.

4. I think Collins is being underrated. He is tremendous in coverage and rushing and is still near his prime. I guess I get the skepticism since he played for the Patriots but that shouldn't be held against him.

Again on Slay, we saved probably 17 mil a year for 3 years..and added a 3rd and 5th. If that money was and is spent well, and he makes good with those picks, it could prove to be much better overall for our defense. We will see though.

[BarryTheBest]

I always appreciate your honest reflections Diehard. This is a good post and one that many will agree with, including myself. 

To add to this, the neutrality we find ourselves in actually doesn't concern me. The contracts we awarded by all accounts have mostly been team friendly including that of HV. 

The reason this position doesnt concern me is many times teams use free agency to hand out big deals to people who give back marginal returns. 

I expect a nice jump from last years class and am excited to see what we draft this year since we have a lot of picks in the first 3 rounds with a potential trade down as you mentioned.

 

[LionArkie]

great post.  i'm pretty much with you on this. this fa has been pretty ho hum, however, that's the same description for BQ in my mind.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

Mentally, here's where I differ: the moment Stafford missed the Bears' game due to a back injury, I wanted two things: 1) Stafford to sit for the rest of the season, and 2) the Lions to lose out. The concept of "tanking" is one that analytics supports: in the NFL, if you aren't going to 'win', you benefit your franchise far more by losing. Other sports have caught on, implementing a lottery system to curb the benefits of losing. The NFL has not.

Being that I wanted this team to lose out, they did exactly what I wanted them to do. I don't think any less of Quinn or Patricia because they finished 3-12-1: we're in a vastly better position for the future with the 3rd overall pick than if we were drafting 15th. If we're able to land a star player and a few great players in this draft, it was only because we finished 3-12-1.

This leads me to my final point: had the Lions won 10 games last year, I feel that many would fully support Patricia right now, all of this background noise considered. Everything would be viewed in a different light, because, to many, it all comes down to wins. Former Patriots players? Smart move, Quinn... it works. Trading Slay? Well, the guy clashed with a successful coaching staff, so it makes sense. The free agent contracts? They must see something in these guys.

But that's my issue: 3-12-1 was a successful season to me. I didn't feel like we were good enough with Stafford to win a Super Bowl, so we definitely weren't going to compete for one without him. They did, what I feel, is the best thing for this franchise. That's why I still support Quinn and Patricia, why I see the rationale behind their decisions, and why I'm hopeful for 2020.

[Sllim Pickens]

My problem with Patricia is all of this supposed issue with Slay came year one when he was documented as showing up late for meetings and not being disciplined himself. He lost me early on with that.  I get some may like his personality both in the locker room and on this board, but I agree he just doesnt have the credibility to act that way.  Earn the respect by winning.  And if you have issues with your best players, learn how to fix it rather than running them out of town for scraps.  It was pushed to the point of Slay speaking out publicly about it and although Slay deserves a lot of the blame for that, they couldnt control their guys long enough to get appropriate value for them.  

I agree with all of the moves.  I don't mind Big V but hate the contract.  I think Quinn structured it well so we can get out of it hopefully as I dont see him being worthy of top 10 RT money at any point. 

I liked the Collins, Shelton and Harmon moves but agree, I am skeptical with NE players when they leave NE because that means their cost has outgrown their value to the system.  

I actually like the Kearse signing, its one of those moves that NE makes where they get a guy with a skill set that fits our D and we can potentially exploit that skill on a reasonable contract.  

[Sllim Pickens]

6 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Mentally, here's where I differ: the moment Stafford missed the Bears' game due to a back injury, I wanted two things: 1) Stafford to sit for the rest of the season, and 2) the Lions to lose out. The concept of "tanking" is one that analytics supports: in the NFL, if you aren't going to 'win', you benefit your franchise far more by losing. Other sports have caught on, implementing a lottery system to curb the benefits of losing. The NFL has not.

Being that I wanted this team to lose out, they did exactly what I wanted them to do. I don't think any less of Quinn or Patricia because they finished 3-12-1: we're in a vastly better position for the future with the 3rd overall pick than if we were drafting 15th. If we're able to land a star player and a few great players in this draft, it was only because we finished 3-12-1.

This leads me to my final point: had the Lions won 10 games last year, I feel that many would fully support Patricia right now, all of this background noise considered. Everything would be viewed in a different light, because, to many, it all comes down to wins. Former Patriots players? Smart move, Quinn... it works. Trading Slay? Well, the guy clashed with a successful coaching staff, so it makes sense. The free agent contracts? They must see something in these guys.

But that's my issue: 3-12-1 was a successful season to me. I didn't feel like we were good enough with Stafford to win a Super Bowl, so we definitely weren't going to compete for one without him. They did, what I feel, is the best thing for this franchise. That's why I still support Quinn and Patricia, why I see the rationale behind their decisions, and why I'm hopeful for 2020.

I agree, I dont hold anything against Patricia for Staffords injury but we were 3-4-1 at that point with a tie and loss to teams picking in the top 10.  I dont have faith it would have gotten much better with Stafford.  The team as a whole lacked talent.  The defense was one of the all time worst in Detroit history.  So yes, if the team had won 10 games, we would all be supportive of him.  If they had beat AZ and Oakland and had us in the playoff hunt with close losses to KC and GB, than sure, people would be happier.  But we didn't, and things only got worse from that point.  The final result is a successful season to add talent, but it wasn't solely due to Stafford being gone.  Poor coaching decisions and inability to adjust during games led to that, which falls squarely on Patricia. 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

22 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I agree, I dont hold anything against Patricia for Staffords injury but we were 3-4-1 at that point with a tie and loss to teams picking in the top 10.  I dont have faith it would have gotten much better with Stafford.  The team as a whole lacked talent.  The defense was one of the all time worst in Detroit history.  So yes, if the team had won 10 games, we would all be supportive of him.  If they had beat AZ and Oakland and had us in the playoff hunt with close losses to KC and GB, than sure, people would be happier.  But we didn't, and things only got worse from that point.  The final result is a successful season to add talent, but it wasn't solely due to Stafford being gone.  Poor coaching decisions and inability to adjust during games led to that, which falls squarely on Patricia. 

See, I agree, and I think the part in bold helps support my view on it all. With Stafford, we seemed to be able to legitimately compete with anyone, yet we weren't winning a bunch of games. Why? We lacked talent, especially on the defensive side of the ball. That, to me, is the exact reason why shutting Stafford down and finishing with a top pick was the best thing for this franchise.

The second part in bold: we've both acknowledged that this team was competitive, even with lesser talent, a bad defense and without Stafford. Patricia undoubtedly made mistakes - the guy is a young head coach - but, even with those mistakes and a serious lack of talent, we were competitive. He must have made some good decisions to keep a talent-lacking team competitive without their best player. Patricia deserves credit for that as well.

Edited March 26, 2020 by TL-TwoWinsAway

[BarryTheBest]

47 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

My problem with Patricia is all of this supposed issue with Slay came year one when he was documented as showing up late for meetings and not being disciplined himself. He lost me early on with that.  I get some may like his personality both in the locker room and on this board, but I agree he just doesnt have the credibility to act that way.  Earn the respect by winning.  And if you have issues with your best players, learn how to fix it rather than running them out of town for scraps.  It was pushed to the point of Slay speaking out publicly about it and although Slay deserves a lot of the blame for that, they couldnt control their guys long enough to get appropriate value for them.  

I agree with all of the moves.  I don't mind Big V but hate the contract.  I think Quinn structured it well so we can get out of it hopefully as I dont see him being worthy of top 10 RT money at any point. 

I liked the Collins, Shelton and Harmon moves but agree, I am skeptical with NE players when they leave NE because that means their cost has outgrown their value to the system.  

I actually like the Kearse signing, its one of those moves that NE makes where they get a guy with a skill set that fits our D and we can potentially exploit that skill on a reasonable contract.  

Everyone keeps side stepping that yes, all these issues happened in his first year.. Where is all this from year 2 after his admitted self reflection?

Slay and MP hashed it out and MP apologized. Slay even said year 2 was "good", yet the media only wants to harp on the first year stuff.

It is true that perennial losers do have the microscope over this kind of thing I guess.

[diehardlionfan]

1 hour ago, flyguy1609 said:

nicely done. ive been a fan since 89 and its been hard lately. 

i dont mind the big V contract.i get it hes not a huge "difference-maker" on the line but hes young enough(26) to grow into a solid starter. he finished FF's 26th-highest grade among 88 qualified offensive tackles in 2019. its better then what Wagner right?

i actually like the Collins signing. doesn't movie Davis(he had a problem covering imo) and Collins is better so that helps like you pointed out.

also i feel that the lions will sign a rb(d. freema/r. freeman or trade for Lindsay) or something but they will make a move.

i dont think they thought Conklin  would have signed for what he did.

for the draft esp after the Tua video came out i def can see us trading down at least once. in the other thread i brought up the jags as a sleeper to move up to  3(9th- brown), Ngakoue and 3rd round pick)

 

 

All very solid points. The trade idea would be awesome.

With Big V I really hope he works out. He’s better than Wagner because he’s good at something. I view it as high risk potentially high reward. I would’ve preferred a more proven option. 

[Karnage84]

1 hour ago, Sllim Pickens said:

My problem with Patricia is all of this supposed issue with Slay came year one when he was documented as showing up late for meetings and not being disciplined himself. He lost me early on with that.  I get some may like his personality both in the locker room and on this board, but I agree he just doesnt have the credibility to act that way.  Earn the respect by winning.  And if you have issues with your best players, learn how to fix it rather than running them out of town for scraps.  It was pushed to the point of Slay speaking out publicly about it and although Slay deserves a lot of the blame for that, they couldnt control their guys long enough to get appropriate value for them.  

I agree with all of the moves.  I don't mind Big V but hate the contract.  I think Quinn structured it well so we can get out of it hopefully as I dont see him being worthy of top 10 RT money at any point. 

I liked the Collins, Shelton and Harmon moves but agree, I am skeptical with NE players when they leave NE because that means their cost has outgrown their value to the system.  

I actually like the Kearse signing, its one of those moves that NE makes where they get a guy with a skill set that fits our D and we can potentially exploit that skill on a reasonable contract.  

I don't know this for sure but could this have been a symptom of a new HC figuring out how to be a HC. He's new to the job and learning to deal with the time management aspect as the CEO of the organization. In some cases teams will hire HC's a year early just to get their guy and they do let them develop. Anyone that is coming in with HC experience has failed somewhere else. 

[diehardlionfan]

2 hours ago, detroitroar said:

Great post.

To play devils advocate here for the defensive decisions:

1. Slay, I believe, was a little sensitive. Theres nothing wrong with pushing your best players to be even better. I'd have zero problem with MP riding Stafford.

2. That, plus the fact Slay was already paid as a top 5 cb, suggests to me they collectively decided the money plus draft capitol would be better overall for a defense with multiple holes. I wish we had mustered a 2nd, but oh well.

3. I think Shelton will be a noticable upgrade from what Snacks was last year. He deserves a tad more credit.

4. I think Collins is being underrated. He is tremendous in coverage and rushing and is still near his prime. I guess I get the skepticism since he played for the Patriots but that shouldn't be held against him.

Again on Slay, we saved probably 17 mil a year for 3 years..and added a 3rd and 5th. If that money was and is spent well, and he makes good with those picks, it could prove to be much better overall for our defense. We will see though.

I think you’re right about the philosophy behind the moves however they still offered Bradberry big money. It could be that Slays age worked against him.

I agree about pushing your best players. It’s the methods Patricia seems to use. I learned long ago that invalidating the feelings of others isn’t the way to build relationships. 

I like Shelton and agree he’s an upgrade. The money is reasonable as well. I would simply prefer a DT that like Shelton is really good against the run but can generate more pressure. Perhaps they feel Williams is the tackle that will penetrate. I will say that if they find a way to generate more pressure through another signing, a trade or draft selection then Shelton becomes even more valuable. There’s still lots of moving pieces to the puzzle. 

I appreciate the feedback on Collins. I agree it’s an upgrade in coverage. In my view it was one of the most glaring deficiencies of the defence last year. I don’t mean to sound negative on Collins it’s simply that I’ve seen so many good football players get signed by their ex coach. 

I agree about the draft. If they can move back and pick up sufficient draft capital they have a real opportunity.
 

 

[diehardlionfan]

2 hours ago, BarryTheBest said:

I always appreciate your honest reflections Diehard. This is a good post and one that many will agree with, including myself. 

To add to this, the neutrality we find ourselves in actually doesn't concern me. The contracts we awarded by all accounts have mostly been team friendly including that of HV. 

The reason this position doesnt concern me is many times teams use free agency to hand out big deals to people who give back marginal returns. 

I expect a nice jump from last years class and am excited to see what we draft this year since we have a lot of picks in the first 3 rounds with a potential trade down as you mentioned.

 

I sure hope your right.😎

[diehardlionfan]

2 hours ago, Sllim Pickens said:

My problem with Patricia is all of this supposed issue with Slay came year one when he was documented as showing up late for meetings and not being disciplined himself. He lost me early on with that.  I get some may like his personality both in the locker room and on this board, but I agree he just doesnt have the credibility to act that way.  Earn the respect by winning.  And if you have issues with your best players, learn how to fix it rather than running them out of town for scraps.  It was pushed to the point of Slay speaking out publicly about it and although Slay deserves a lot of the blame for that, they couldnt control their guys long enough to get appropriate value for them.  

I agree with all of the moves.  I don't mind Big V but hate the contract.  I think Quinn structured it well so we can get out of it hopefully as I dont see him being worthy of top 10 RT money at any point. 

I liked the Collins, Shelton and Harmon moves but agree, I am skeptical with NE players when they leave NE because that means their cost has outgrown their value to the system.  

I actually like the Kearse signing, its one of those moves that NE makes where they get a guy with a skill set that fits our D and we can potentially exploit that skill on a reasonable contract.  

Good post thanks for your perspective.