The Lions, my view.

[Karnage84]

1 minute ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Yeah, I just don't see how we can ignore the accomplishments of an NFL coordinator. As a fanbase, we love criticizing our coordinators. I guess, for now on, we shouldn't put any of it - the bad or the good - on them. Just the head coach.

We have to take it all in context. If the HC is running either the offense or the defense in full and their OC/DC is really just a glorified assistant, then yeah, that should be the case. If you have a proper HC that is overseeing the operation or a coordinator that is responsible for the other half of the team (Offensive HC/DC or Defensive HC/OC), then that coordinator should get the respect for the work that they did. 

[Karnage84]

1 minute ago, detroitroar said:

We cant just act oblivious to the fact that BB had a significant influence on those defenses.

Of which, havent been duplicated here anyways.

Nevermind the bonehead in game decisions and blown leads.

Nobody is acting oblivious to that. What I am saying is that Patricia was his DC from 2012 - 2017 (6 seasons). If he was this terrible coach that didn't do anything, BB would have just fired and replaced him with Joe Nobody because he wasn't really adding anything to the defense anyway. The only reason Patricia left is because he got a better job, not because he was fired by BB. 

All of this is in early 2018. That is when Patricia came in and knocked heads with Slay. MP came in and handled things the wrong way. He's admitted to it and he's changed from all of that. What TL and I are both saying is that a) we're including his lack of accomplishments here with hindsight being 20/20. The 2018 or 2019 season did not happen yet at the time this all went down and b) he did walk into that locker room with 3 SB rings and several accomplishments under his belt. To say that he hasn't accomplished ANYTHING up until that point (and beyond) is incorrect. Those SB's as a DC don't guarantee success as a HC and so far they haven't. He still accomplished enough to deserve respect to start. What he does with that afterwards is up to him to maintain. 

[detroitroar]

4 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Nobody is acting oblivious to that. What I am saying is that Patricia was his DC from 2012 - 2017 (6 seasons). If he was this terrible coach that didn't do anything, BB would have just fired and replaced him with Joe Nobody because he wasn't really adding anything to the defense anyway. The only reason Patricia left is because he got a better job, not because he was fired by BB. 

All of this is in early 2018. That is when Patricia came in and knocked heads with Slay. MP came in and handled things the wrong way. He's admitted to it and he's changed from all of that. What TL and I are both saying is that a) we're including his lack of accomplishments here with hindsight being 20/20. The 2018 or 2019 season did not happen yet at the time this all went down and b) he did walk into that locker room with 3 SB rings and several accomplishments under his belt. To say that he hasn't accomplished ANYTHING up until that point (and beyond) is incorrect. Those SB's as a DC don't guarantee success as a HC and so far they haven't. He still accomplished enough to deserve respect to start. What he does with that afterwards is up to him to maintain. 

Well I agree then. I obviously dont think he has maintained any of it so far but I hope he proves me wrong this year.

[nagahide13]

Coordinators get credit for their specific units, but not for overall team successes. Things like superbowl wins go directly to the head coach and QB. Sometimes you can replace the QB with an entire defensive unit, (Bears, Ravens, Bucs, etc) and sometimes both QB and defense see love (Steelers) but those are rare. The head coach always gets the credit. I don't think that's particularly justified, but for the most part its true among fans and players.

Casual fans don't know who (Richard) LeBeau and Monte Kiffen are, much less Buddy Ryan etc... Names that changed the game forever. (Those are just the best coordinators that didn't have success as headcoaches that I can think of, and I'm sure there are a ton more.)

Edited March 26, 2020 by nagahide13

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

31 minutes ago, nagahide13 said:

Coordinators get credit for their specific units, but not for overall team successes. Things like superbowl wins go directly to the head coach and QB. Sometimes you can replace the QB with an entire defensive unit, (Bears, Ravens, Bucs, etc) and sometimes both QB and defense see love (Steelers) but those are rare. The head coach always gets the credit. I don't think that's particularly justified, but for the most part its true among fans and players.

Casual fans don't know who (Richard) LeBeau and Monte Kiffen are, much less Buddy Ryan etc... Names that changed the game forever. (Those are just the best coordinators that didn't have success as headcoaches that I can think of, and I'm sure there are a ton more.)

I believe that Patricia's defenses were very good while defensive coordinator of the Patriots.

[Sllim Pickens]

14 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

You could be right but we won't know that with any certainty unless it is directly acknowledged by BB or someone else that Bill is the puppet master behind all of those defenses. 

Obviously BB will never do that, but he is a defensive coach and keeps winning despite changing OCs and DCs every couple of years.  I think its pretty well known he is the mastermind behind it.  Just like Saban at Bama, no matter who the assistants are, he wins.  

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

20 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Obviously BB will never do that, but he is a defensive coach and keeps winning despite changing OCs and DCs every couple of years.  I think its pretty well known he is the mastermind behind it.  Just like Saban at Bama, no matter who the assistants are, he wins.  

Every couple of years? Josh McDaniels has been his OC for 12 seasons, and Patricia was there for six. (For the record, that's three times longer than some of you feel Patricia should be in Detroit.)

But, let me make sure I understand: Belichick is such a good coach that he intentionally seeks, employs and retains bad coordinators?

And coordinators mean so little to Belichick that he opted to make McDaniels the highest paid offensive coordinator in the league (by far) in 2018?

Edited March 27, 2020 by TL-TwoWinsAway

[Sllim Pickens]

22 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Every couple of years? Josh McDaniels has been his OC for 12 seasons, and Patricia was there for six. (For the record, that's three times longer than some of you feel Patricia should be in Detroit.)

But, let me make sure I understand: Belichick is such a good coach that he intentionally seeks, employs and retains bad coordinators?

And coordinators mean so little to Belichick that he opted to make McDaniels the highest paid offensive coordinator in the league (by far) in 2018?

DC means so little that they didnt have one for four years under BB, because he runs the D how he wants, including the year after Patricia left and they still go 11-5 and won a SB.  They are so important that in 2010 he didnt have either an OC or a DC and went 14-2. The first 10 years in NE he had 5 different DCs including not having one in 2010 and he won 3 SBs and went to 2 more. He is a defensive coach, so he has kept McDaniels to run his O, but yeah, he hasn't in the past given much care who runs his D, because it is his D. 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

1 minute ago, Sllim Pickens said:

DC means so little that they didnt have one for four years under BB, because he runs the D how he wants, including the year after Patricia left and they still go 11-5 and won a SB.  They are so important that in 2010 he didnt have either an OC or a DC and went 14-2. The first 10 years in NE he had 5 different DCs including not having one in 2010 and he won 3 SBs and went to 2 more. He is a defensive coach, so he has kept McDaniels to run his O, but yeah, he hasn't in the past given much care who runs his D, because it is his D. 

So it's irrelevant that he kept Patricia there for six (successful) seasons?

I don't disagree that it's Belichick's scheme, and that he has his hands in it, but, from the perspective of Lions' fans, shouldn't that be regarded as a positive? Belichick is clearly a coaching genius and Patricia was able to learn from him for 14 seasons. Shouldn't that be regarded as a positive?

I almost feel like you guys would rather take an unsuccessful coordinator from an unsuccessful franchise, who learned behind a terrible head coach. Of course, if nothing matters when functioning as a coordinator, why not? Why are the positive accounts of Patricia from Patriots' players, both current and former, irrelevant?

It seems like you're trying really hard to discredit his successes. 

[LionArkie]

Like all things, I think there is a balance here.  I believe BB employs yes men.  I think and he goes with coordinators who completely buy into his system and do things his way.  Patricia definitely learned from that but BB has buy in from top to bottom and controls ALL aspects including the draft. This is not the case here in Detroit. This is also why I don't think any coordinator has worked out anywhere else, and the closest it will ever work will be here as you have two of his disciples working here.  I think if you put Patrica as a DC anywhere else, he will be completely average.  I don't think he can hc anywhere else other than NE or Det and I think it is going to take too long to implement the Patriot way.  If I remember right, NE fans were upset to see Patricia go as they wanted him to take over for BB if he retired.  I think that says something, but I don't think it means he will work out elsewhere.

[Sllim Pickens]

12 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

So it's irrelevant that he kept Patricia there for six (successful) seasons?

I don't disagree that it's Belichick's scheme, and that he has his hands in it, but, from the perspective of Lions' fans, shouldn't that be regarded as a positive? Belichick is clearly a coaching genius and Patricia was able to learn from him for 14 seasons. Shouldn't that be regarded as a positive?

I almost feel like you guys would rather take an unsuccessful coordinator from an unsuccessful franchise, who learned behind a terrible head coach. Of course, if nothing matters when functioning as a coordinator, why not? Why are the positive accounts of Patricia from Patriots' players, both current and former, irrelevant?

It seems like you're trying really hard to discredit his successes. 

Because I dont feel his success was his.  The reason other DCs were shuffled in the early BB era was because they all left to be head coaches, and all failed because, its BB's system.  I give some credit to MP being there 6 years but is that because he wasn't HC material, or because people know its BBs system and that his proteges have had zero success in the league as HCs.  Even McDaniels is getting some love again as a HC but it has taken a failed HC stint and 8 more years to be considered.  

I dont want an unsuccessful DC/OC from an unsuccessful system, but I want that person to be running their system that they have developed and been successful with, not someone who steps in and runs the HCs system.  Its the same reason I dont care much who our DC is, because its MPs defense he is running.  

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

Out of curiosity (to everyone)...

What happens if Patricia succeeds? What's the narrative? He's some mediocre coach that had no impact on the Patriots, learned nothing from Belichick but managed to get lucky and succeed in Detroit? Why would that be?

I know many have already written him off, assuming that it's just another 10 or so months until we hire our next head coach. What if that doesn't happen?

It's the same thing I come back to with this team: some of you don't believe it's possible that they can win 10 games next year. What if they do? Will you act surprised, like a transformation from 3-12-1 to 10-6 couldn't have been predicted, ignoring the value that the 3rd overall pick and a healthy Stafford would undoubtedly add to this roster?

It just seems - to me - that tearing Patricia down after only his second year with this team is awfully short-sighted.

Wise words from @Nnivolcm:

Quote

The Lions have a history of hiring head coaches, and firing them before they have the chance to implement their system and filling out the roster with talent. Which brings in a new HC to implement a new system. It's a vicious cycle the Lions don't seem willing to break.

Edited March 27, 2020 by TL-TwoWinsAway

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

3 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Because I dont feel his success was his.  The reason other DCs were shuffled in the early BB era was because they all left to be head coaches, and all failed because, its BB's system.  I give some credit to MP being there 6 years but is that because he wasn't HC material, or because people know its BBs system and that his proteges have had zero success in the league as HCs.  Even McDaniels is getting some love again as a HC but it has taken a failed HC stint and 8 more years to be considered.  

I dont want an unsuccessful DC/OC from an unsuccessful system, but I want that person to be running their system that they have developed and been successful with, not someone who steps in and runs the HCs system.  Its the same reason I dont care much who our DC is, because its MPs defense he is running.  

Aren't we assuming quite a bit right here? Do any of us really know how much influence Patricia had on the Patriots' defense?

If you google "Patricia running Patriots defense", you come across a bunch of articles that claim Patricia was the individual calling the defensive plays. Surely that means something, right?

I don't think any of us know how much influence Patricia had in NE, but assuming that his level of influence was zero is both unfortunate and, likely, inaccurate.

[Sllim Pickens]

2 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Out of curiosity (to everyone)...

What happens if Patricia succeeds? What's the narrative? He's some mediocre coach that had no impact on the Patriots, learned nothing from Belichick but managed to get lucky and succeed in Detroit? Why would that be?

I know many have already written him off, assuming that it's just another 10 or so months until we hire our next head coach. What if that doesn't happen?

It's the same thing I come back to with this team: some of you don't believe it's possible that they can win 10 games next year. What if they do? Will you act surprised, like a transformation from 3-12-1 to 10-6 couldn't have been predicted, ignoring the value that the 3rd overall pick and a healthy Stafford would undoubtedly add to this roster?

It just seems - to me - that tearing Patricia down after only his second year with this team is awfully short-sighted.

 

If we somehow win, I will admit I am wrong.  I will admit that MP is the exception, not the rule of BB assistants.  I will admit that he did something I dont think he is capable of.  

I think there is more than just saying take last year and add Stafford and a top 3 pick.  First they have to make the correct top 3 pick, I think we are worse on the OL and DL this year.  I think we are worse at CB this year.  So if you take all of that into consideration, I just dont have confidence in Quinn or Patricia.  I dont have confidence that his players will develop, I dont have confidence he will challenge or call time outs at the right time.  I dont trust he will make the right calls at the end of games to ice games away.  But if he does, I will admit I was wrong.  Simple as that.  I am playing the odds, and the odds say someone who struggles their first two years (even struggled before Stafford got hurt) dont just miraculously become great coaches.The odds say BB assistants dont make good HCs.  

[Sllim Pickens]

Just now, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Aren't we assuming quite a bit right here? Do any of us really know how much influence Patricia had on the Patriots' defense?

If you google "Patricia running Patriots defense", you come across a bunch of articles that claim Patricia was the individual calling the defensive plays. Surely that means something, right?

I don't think any of us know how much influence Patricia had in NE, but assuming that his level of influence was zero is both unfortunate and, likely, inaccurate.

I dont think his influence was zero, I think his ability to develop it is not shown. Sure he may have added a little here and there to it and learned to call plays in his time there the way BB liked it, but he wasn't the guy who invented or shaped that defense.  They were plug and playing guys long before MP got there.