The Lions, my view.

[BarryTheBest]

40 minutes ago, nagahide13 said:

I don't know why you're giving a guy credit for personal growth when we haven't seen it. The player you're using as evidence just forced a trade and is currently talking an incredible amount of juice. The media isn't harping on first year stuff, they're harping on RIGHT NOW stuff. Slay is saying all of this stuff RIGHT NOW.

We weren't losing until Patricia took over.

Hold on there buddy.. Slay brought it up now, but the issue was in Patricia's first year on the job as was all the media tardiness, etc. Please provide one example of these issues in year 2.. 

The Slay trade in general had everything to do with us not wanting to pay him.. He said as recently as a few weeks ago that he would love to retire a Lion if they could make the contract work. They couldn't, he was traded. 

I am not trying to give MP undue credit. I am simply stating facts here.

[LionArkie]

15 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I have a feeling that they're gearing up for a big push in the running game. I could see two OGs drafted within the first 4 rounds and one of the top-tier RBs drafted (uncomfortably early for some).

one can only hope.

[diehardlionfan]

1 hour ago, Karnage84 said:

3 X Super Bowl Champion + 1x AFC Champion . DC for perennial top 10 defenses during his tenure. 

The guy did his job at a high level for an extended period of time. Even in his first year with us, we had a top 10 defense by the end of the year. 

Patricia has publicly acknowledged that he made some mistakes in year 1.This Slay situation, despite my position on Slay overreacting in ways, is a great example of learning on the job. To say that Patricia hasn't done anything to earn respect is underselling him in ways. He's been a key contributor on championship teams for a long time. 

As an assistant.

He has no head coaching experience at any level. If he were hired to be DC that’s a different conversation. He had success as a DC but his numbers were also aided by defensive starting position. Only once did his team finish below 3rd (6th). The offence also didn’t turn the ball over. That offence really helped the defence.

 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

1 minute ago, diehardlionfan said:

As an assistant.

He has no head coaching experience at any level. If he were hired to be DC that’s a different conversation. He had success as a DC but his numbers were also aided by defensive starting position. Only once did his team finish below 3rd (6th). The offence also didn’t turn the ball over. That offence really helped the defence.

Possibly, and probably, but his numbers still cannot be disregarded. His defenses never finished below 10th in team defense, reached 1st and 5th on two occasions, and helped win two Super Bowls. For all of his flaws as a young head coach (and most coaches have struggled as first time head coaches), his success as a coordinator shouldn't be discounted.

[Karnage84]

2 hours ago, nagahide13 said:

Justified or not, you don't really get credit as a coordinator. Fans and players both.

You get selected to be a HC based on your work as a coordinator and the projection of your abilities in that limited role being expanded into a larger, all encompassing role. Patricia was coaching under BB but it was his defense to run. If Patricia had a defense that was in the 20's with the Patriots we would hold that against him as part of the explanation of why he isn't fit to be HC. 

2 hours ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Truth.  A lot of great coordinators arent great HCs.  So earn respect as a leader, not as a position coach/coord.  He came in right away and rubbed people he wrong way, and it was well documented that he didnt have the locker room.  Although it seems he is learning, and doing better, he still has a long ways to go to be respected as a HC. 

You're not wrong - there are a lot of really good coaches that just aren't cut out for the role of HC. Patricia is still TBD at this point in time. He does have a ways to go and it needs to be proven with results on the field. The fact that he is bringing in more guys that understand where he's coming from and what he's trying to accomplish is a positive to me. If you watch that interview with Duron Harmon and Tori Petry, he's a guy that likes the coaching style and thrives with it. 

[diehardlionfan]

13 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Possibly, and probably, but his numbers still cannot be disregarded. His defenses never finished below 10th in team defense, reached 1st and 5th on two occasions, and helped win two Super Bowls. For all of his flaws as a young head coach (and most coaches have struggled as first time head coaches), his success as a coordinator shouldn't be discounted.

I evaluate him my way, you yours. 

[Sllim Pickens]

1 minute ago, Karnage84 said:

You get selected to be a HC based on your work as a coordinator and the projection of your abilities in that limited role being expanded into a larger, all encompassing role. Patricia was coaching under BB but it was his defense to run. If Patricia had a defense that was in the 20's with the Patriots we would hold that against him as part of the explanation of why he isn't fit to be HC. 

You're not wrong - there are a lot of really good coaches that just aren't cut out for the role of HC. Patricia is still TBD at this point in time. He does have a ways to go and it needs to be proven with results on the field. The fact that he is bringing in more guys that understand where he's coming from and what he's trying to accomplish is a positive to me. If you watch that interview with Duron Harmon and Tori Petry, he's a guy that likes the coaching style and thrives with it. 

Lets hope it works.  Rod Marinelli was known for bringing in guys specific to his system and that liked his coaching style too and that didnt work out.  I dont love the roster additions, I dont think we are better than last year on D. I think we will struggle and they will all be gone unless we have one heck of a draft. 

[Sllim Pickens]

16 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Possibly, and probably, but his numbers still cannot be disregarded. His defenses never finished below 10th in team defense, reached 1st and 5th on two occasions, and helped win two Super Bowls. For all of his flaws as a young head coach (and most coaches have struggled as first time head coaches), his success as a coordinator shouldn't be discounted.

His numbers in NE have to be evaluated with context, your favorite word.  All of NEs Ds under the mastermind BB did well.  He had numerous coaches under him move on to bigger roles and struggle.  I believe the majority of that success was not Patricia's, and based on their continued success since he left, would support that. 

[Karnage84]

17 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said:

As an assistant.

He has no head coaching experience at any level. If he were hired to be DC that’s a different conversation. He had success as a DC but his numbers were also aided by defensive starting position. Only once did his team finish below 3rd (6th). The offence also didn’t turn the ball over. That offence really helped the defence.

 

If he never won a SB we would have pointed that out as a reason to not hire him. He was a member of a very, very good team in a significant role. He played his part just as other parts of the team contributed to that overall success. 

Mike Vrabel had even less coaching experience but came in as a SB winner (as a player) and was given credit for that at the time of his hire. 

We can't discount what Patricia did accomplish in the past while we can't equally diminish his current failures because of it. He had success in NE and he's had struggles here. He might right the ship or he might be the next "previous Lions coach". 

[detroitroar]

2 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said:

I evaluate him my way, you yours. 

I tend to see it your way.

His accolades as an assistant mean nothing right now. Hes not our defensive coordinator. Hes our head coach. 2 very different things. 

Plus, hes yet to show he was a big reason for those successes. I dont care about how damn smart he is. I think having wisdom and instincts counts more than pure intelligence in this game. 

[Karnage84]

Just now, Sllim Pickens said:

His numbers in NE have to be evaluated with context, your favorite word.  All of NEs Ds under the mastermind BB did well.  He had numerous coaches under him move on to bigger roles and struggle.  I believe the majority of that success was not Patricia's, and based on their continued success since he left, would support that. 

You could be right but we won't know that with any certainty unless it is directly acknowledged by BB or someone else that Bill is the puppet master behind all of those defenses. 

[Karnage84]

1 minute ago, detroitroar said:

I tend to see it your way.

His accolades as an assistant mean nothing right now. Hes not our defensive coordinator. Hes our head coach. 2 very different things. 

Plus, hes yet to show he was a big reason for those successes. I dont care about how damn smart he is. I think having wisdom and instincts counts more than pure intelligence in this game. 

Right now, no. As a new HC in 2018 that has just walked into the locker room and looking to lead the team. Yeah, I think it does. At that point, that was his track record. A 3 x SB winning DC on a team that was always knocking on the door of winning the Conference Title and the SB. Slay was a Pro Bowl CB on a bad team that barely made the playoffs twice. 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

Just now, Karnage84 said:

Right now, no. As a new HC in 2018 that has just walked into the locker room and looking to lead the team. Yeah, I think it does. At that point, that was his track record. A 3 x SB winning DC on a team that was always knocking on the door of winning the Conference Title and the SB. Slay was a Pro Bowl CB on a bad team that barely made the playoffs twice. 

Yeah, I just don't see how we can ignore the accomplishments of an NFL coordinator. As a fanbase, we love criticizing our coordinators. I guess, for now on, we shouldn't put any of it - the bad or the good - on them. Just the head coach.

[LionArkie]

4 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Yeah, I just don't see how we can ignore the accomplishments of an NFL coordinator. As a fanbase, we love criticizing our coordinators. I guess, for now on, we shouldn't put any of it - the bad or the good - on them. Just the head coach.

I don't know...Belichick has a history of winning constantly with whatever DC.  I am not sure that 100% conveys here.  Now, if he only won with Patricia, then I'd be a little more apt to agree with you. However, BB has never won without Brady...(sorry, had to throw that in there).

[detroitroar]

9 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Right now, no. As a new HC in 2018 that has just walked into the locker room and looking to lead the team. Yeah, I think it does. At that point, that was his track record. A 3 x SB winning DC on a team that was always knocking on the door of winning the Conference Title and the SB. Slay was a Pro Bowl CB on a bad team that barely made the playoffs twice. 

We cant just act oblivious to the fact that BB had a significant influence on those defenses.

Of which, havent been duplicated here anyways.

Nevermind the bonehead in game decisions and blown leads.