The Lions, my view.

[LionArkie]

4 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Out of curiosity (to everyone)...

What happens if Patricia succeeds? What's the narrative? He's some mediocre coach that had no impact on the Patriots, learned nothing from Belichick but managed to get lucky and succeed in Detroit? Why would that be?

I know many have already written him off, assuming that it's just another 10 or so months until we hire our next head coach. What if that doesn't happen?

It's the same thing I come back to with this team: some of you don't believe it's possible that they can win 10 games next year. What if they do? Will you act surprised, like a transformation from 3-12-1 to 10-6 couldn't have been predicted, ignoring the value that the 3rd overall pick and a healthy Stafford would undoubtedly add to this roster?

It just seems - to me - that tearing Patricia down after only his second year with this team is awfully short-sighted.

Wise words from @Nnivolcm:

I think MP's only chance to succeed in the NFL as a HC will be the setup he has now.  I think him winning is more of a function of BQ then MP, however, I believe MP needs to be able to teach the players well, which I think MP does. In fact, I think MP might be a very good HC in the college ranks due to his ability to teach. I think the system is what wins and buy in to the system.  It starts at the GM and works itself down. So for me, if he wins, good on him. keep him here and keep on keeping on.  But i don't think we win because of Patricia, he plays a part, but most of the credit should go to BQ.  Is it fair, no, but I believe this is where NE's success starts from.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

1 minute ago, LionArkie said:

I think MP's only chance to succeed in the NFL as a HC will be the setup he has now.  I think him winning is more of a function of BQ then MP, however, I believe MP needs to be able to teach the players well, which I think MP does. In fact, I think MP might be a very good HC in the college ranks due to his ability to teach. I think the system is what wins and buy in to the system.  It starts at the GM and works itself down. So for me, if he wins, good on him. keep him here and keep on keeping on.  But i don't think we win because of Patricia, he plays a part, but most of the credit should go to BQ.  Is it fair, no, but I believe this is where NE's success starts from.

So do you also feel that most of the criticism for losing is on Quinn and not Patricia? Or is it that 'coach's curse': when you win, it was because of someone else, but when you lose, it's your fault?

[LionArkie]

15 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

So do you also feel that most of the criticism for losing is on Quinn and not Patricia? Or is it that 'coach's curse': when you win, it was because of someone else, but when you lose, it's your fault?

good question.  I think for the most part yes, it will fall onto Quinn for not getting the right players/coach in place.  An interesting question would be, would this have worked better with Vrabel?  Bringing in a hc who could polarize the locker room could be Quinn's downfall.  However, he has to set up the contracts, draft the players and balance the budget.  This system works not with studs, but guys who can fill roles.  Is Quinn doing this? I think he has to some degree, and I think it can work. The issue I have with MP is I feel he is very polarizing.  You can be polarizing once you own the locker room and have set up a successful culture in that locker room. Not before.
So, my short answer is yes, it falls on Quinn for not bringing in the right coach to make the entire system work.

 

***looking back over this, now I'm not sure if you were asking if I will place the blame on MP or if others will place the blame on MP?

For me, refer to my answer above.  If you are asking of others, than yes, it will be coach's curse.

Edited March 27, 2020 by LionArkie

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

I see, makes sense.

[BarryTheBest]

53 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

I think MP's only chance to succeed in the NFL as a HC will be the setup he has now.  I think him winning is more of a function of BQ then MP, however, I believe MP needs to be able to teach the players well, which I think MP does. In fact, I think MP might be a very good HC in the college ranks due to his ability to teach. I think the system is what wins and buy in to the system.  It starts at the GM and works itself down. So for me, if he wins, good on him. keep him here and keep on keeping on.  But i don't think we win because of Patricia, he plays a part, but most of the credit should go to BQ.  Is it fair, no, but I believe this is where NE's success starts from.

I tend to agree with TL and Karnage in that I would rather build out current coach up than tear him down. It is all about the power of positivity or manifest destiny if you will..

This is not to say that he and BQ for that matter dont have faults that need to be addressed and evolution that needs to occur, but can't we say that about anyone in the world really?

When we go on to win 10 plus games this year and challenge for the playoffs, it will be in part because of our coach, not in spite of him.

It is funny because there has been all this talk of people not wanting to play here because of his rough neck coaching style, yet Trufant signed here specifically because of MP per his own words. 

Like it or not my friends, he is still well respected throughout the NFL.

[LionArkie]

2 minutes ago, BarryTheBest said:

I tend to agree with TL and Karnage in that I would rather build out current coach up than tear him down. It is all about the power of positivity or manifest destiny if you will..

This is not to say that he and BQ for that matter dont have faults that need to be addressed and evolution that needs to occur, but can't we say that about anyone in the world really?

When we go on to win 10 plus games this year and challenge for the playoffs, it will be in part because of our coach, not in spite of him.

It is funny because there has been all this talk of people not wanting to play here because of his rough neck coaching style, yet Trufant signed here specifically because of MP per his own words. 

Like it or not my friends, he is still well respected throughout the NFL.

Yes,  I don't want to get rid of him either, but it is more because of the constant coach carousel than MP is the next big thing.  I don't disagree with anything you've said here but wanted to highlight the part bolded.  I don't disagree with this, and I feel you have to have a NE coach in place to understand what Quinn is doing. I'm not saying Quinn gets a 100% of the credit.  I say he gets the Lions share (pun intended).  Belichick has the distinct advantage of being the GM and HC.  This is not the case in Detroit.  So, my assesment that NE wins from the top down still holds true for me.

[BarryTheBest]

1 minute ago, LionArkie said:

Yes,  I don't want to get rid of him either, but it is more because of the constant coach carousel than MP is the next big thing.  I don't disagree with anything you've said here but wanted to highlight the part bolded.  I don't disagree with this, and I feel you have to have a NE coach in place to understand what Quinn is doing. I'm not saying Quinn gets a 100% of the credit.  I say he gets the Lions share (pun intended).  Belichick has the distinct advantage of being the GM and HC.  This is not the case in Detroit.  So, my assesment that NE wins from the top down still holds true for me.

I agree, but that is true of any GM/HC tandem.. No?

[LionArkie]

5 minutes ago, BarryTheBest said:

I agree, but that is true of any GM/HC tandem.. No?

Absolutely.  I think Schwartz's downfall was Mayhew and never being able to hit on a non top 5 pick.  The lack of second round talent killed Schwartz. However, because this Patriot Way is very specific and systematic, I believe it amplifies the situation.

Edited March 27, 2020 by LionArkie

[BarryTheBest]

6 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

Absolutely.  I think Schwartz's downfall was Mayhew and never being able to hit on a non top 5 pick.  The lack of second round talent killed Schwartz. However, because this Patriot Way is very specific and systematic, I believe it amplifies the situation.

True.. Quinn did say he was more comfortable scouting for these types of players.. I still believe they go hand in hand regardless of the system being ran. The GM has to obtain players who can execute the coaches vision.. Obviously there are those transcendent talents that can play in any system, but by and large most GM/Coaches need specific player profiles. 

Edited March 27, 2020 by BarryTheBest

[LionArkie]

1 minute ago, BarryTheBest said:

True.. Quinn did say he was more comfortable scouting for these types of players.. I still believe they go hand in hand regardless of the system being ran. The GM has to obtain players who can execute the coaches vision.. Obviously there are those transcendent talents that can play in any system, but by and large most GM/Coaches need specific player profiles. 

Yes, this is why I think this is different. The coach has to execute the GM's vision. Since in NE the GM is the HC, it works much better.

[Nnivolcm]

2 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Wise words from @Nnivolcm:

I wish I knew the context for that quote. I'm assuming it was after the Caldwell or Schwartz firing, neither move I was a fan of. 

The differences with Patricia and Quinn are:

1. They set the expectations of success right away. That was their reasoning for firing the most successful HC in Lions history during the Superbowl Era. This wasn't a rebuild, it was hiring a guy who could make them winners in 2018. 

2. They continue to make the Lions a laughing stock for off the field as much as on the field. Remember when it appeared the Lions hadn't even run a simple background check on their HC when it came out he was indicted for aggravated sexual assault? How about the guy who scolds a journalist for not being professional but can't show up to scheduled meeting on time? Or more recently about how Patricia alienates a lot of players, driving valuable assets away, with his demeaning and child like behavior? 

3. Despite their stated expectations of immediate success, they continue to be a laughing stock on the field as well with nothing but blind optimism indicating that will change. 

2 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Out of curiosity (to everyone)...

What happens if Patricia succeeds? What's the narrative? He's some mediocre coach that had no impact on the Patriots, learned nothing from Belichick but managed to get lucky and succeed in Detroit? Why would that be?

Asked and answered several times. No matter who succeeds. Lions fans will be happy with a team that is successful. The vast majority of Lions fans, or NFL fans, don't see that as a possibility with this regime. If Patricia succeeds here, I'll happily admit how wrong I have been. 

Now I've got a question @TL-TwoWinsAway. If Patricia continues his losing ways and doesn't succeed. Would the next regime have been better off with this off season's assets to implement their changes? There's quite a bit of ammo here for Quinn and Patricia to waste. 

[Nnivolcm]

1 hour ago, BarryTheBest said:

Like it or not my friends, he is still well respected throughout the NFL.

Laughable. 

A newly signed player sucking up to his new coach isn't a sign Patricia is well respected throughout the NFL when every day it seems more and more people are speaking out against him. 

[BarryTheBest]

1 minute ago, Nnivolcm said:

Laughable. 

A newly signed player sucking up to his new coach isn't a sign Patricia is well respected throughout the NFL when every day it seems more and more people are speaking out against him. 

Laughable is the people who refuse to see the facts.

Those same people will sit here and defend Slay for trashing the coach on the way out for something he himself stated they got past, yet call it sucking up when a new player states he came here because of the coach??? 

Lets work on our objectivity a bit huh? 

[Nnivolcm]

1 minute ago, BarryTheBest said:

Laughable is the people who refuse to see the facts.

Those same people will sit here and defend Slay for trashing the coach on the way out for something he himself stated they got past, yet call it sucking up when a new player states he came here because of the coach??? 

Lets work on our objectivity a bit huh? 

I feel plenty objective. One guy has 1st hand experience being coached by Patricia. The other guy has none I'm aware of and is in his self interest to get on his new bosses good side. Which person's statements should an objective person place more weight?

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

20 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

I wish I knew the context for that quote. I'm assuming it was after the Caldwell or Schwartz firing, neither move I was a fan of. 

The differences with Patricia and Quinn are:

1. They set the expectations of success right away. That was their reasoning for firing the most successful HC in Lions history during the Superbowl Era. This wasn't a rebuild, it was hiring a guy who could make them winners in 2018. 

2. They continue to make the Lions a laughing stock for off the field as much as on the field. Remember when it appeared the Lions hadn't even run a simple background check on their HC when it came out he was indicted for aggravated sexual assault? How about the guy who scolds a journalist for not being professional but can't show up to scheduled meeting on time? Or more recently about how Patricia alienates a lot of players, driving valuable assets away, with his demeaning and child like behavior? 

3. Despite their stated expectations of immediate success, they continue to be a laughing stock on the field as well with nothing but blind optimism indicating that will change. 

Now I've got a question @TL-TwoWinsAway. If Patricia continues his losing ways and doesn't succeed. Would the next regime have been better off with this off season's assets to implement their changes? There's quite a bit of ammo here for Quinn and Patricia to waste. 

I'll answer your question first: it's a pointless, unproductive hypothetical, as you could ask that exact same thing about every coach, every year. If we fired Patricia and hired ______, one could ask: "If _____ fails, wouldn't these resources have been better spent by the next coach?" You can't argue with such a hypothetical, filling in the blank with the next, unknown coach, as it can always apply to the next individual. (Now, if you gave me a name and/or coaching staff for this hypothetical, it could lead to a legitimate conversation.)

(This is a flaw often seen in relationships, where one partner starts to convince themselves that things might be better with someone else. If you have that mentality, you'll never be happy - and, in turn, won't work to be happy - with the person you're with. My related, unrelated perspective on that mindset.)

That quote was your response to Caldwell's firing. You were against Caldwell being fired, as you believed it was part of a "vicious cycle" where a Lions' coach is fired before he has a chance to implement "their system" and acquire talent. This was after four years of Caldwell, yet you wanted Patricia fired after just two. It seems like, based on your stance towards Caldwell, you'd certainly feel that Patricia hasn't had enough time. (Which is exactly what many of us are arguing.)

1. If a 9-7 coach is our "most successful head coach in Lions' history", we need to realize that our history is bad, not that our coaches (and that coach in particular) have been good.

2. I guess Belichick hadn't done the same background investigation. Patricia wasn't a 'new' coach: he had been coaching in the NFL since 2004. The journalist wasn't "scolded"... he was calmly asked to sit up. Patricia admitted, after his first season, that he had things to improve with himself.

3. And... context. Like "your starting quarterback missing half of the season" context. That's a lot of key context.

Edited March 27, 2020 by TL-TwoWinsAway