NFL shutting down all team facilities until at least April 8 due to coronavirus

[soulman]

24 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

Just asking questions that need to be asked.  

Basically if you are healthy you are going to live and devolop anti-bodies if you get it.  Right?   Or you have 99% chance of living which is basically same thing.  

Why don't we let the healthy people work and sequester the at risk population and provide economic assistance to them?   We have millions of people in rural areas staying in their homes for basically no reason to be fair to be people in cities.   

How many people will die from ripples of a depression?  Does anyone think about that?  It isn't just we rebuild the economy anymore than it is just we don't need to worry about the elderly or susceptible sick.   

How many people die from all other dangers everyday that doesn't get same media attention?  

You have to make macro decisions.  You can save 10s of 1000s of lives by eliminating all kinds of things, but there is a societal cost to each thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well for one thing it will reach the rural areas as well.  It's already happening but in a more isolated sense simply because there isn't enough population concentrated in one area for it spread as quickly and there are far less people for it to spread to.   Although less populace states have fewer cases their mortality rates are in most cases just as high or higher of those of more populace states.

The other issue is without far more testing we really don't know how many people are infected since many are asymptomatic or have very mild symptoms they may be ignoring but they can still spread that infection to others.  One third of those taken off that ship a week or so ago tested positive but showed no symptoms.  China has also said many of their positives showed few if any symptoms.

So were aren't even close to having a handle on just how many are infected.  That's where the danger lies and why the need for isolation until we can test more people in mass.  Then we may be able to send those who are healthy and those who've recovered back to work but we aren't there yet and won't be for quite awhile longer because we don't have the ability to test enough people just yet.

In any event based on what we know now we're down 'til the end of this month whether we like it or not so like we'd have to do in any natural disaster we do what we can to help each other and make the best of it.  Now, that said anyone got any toilet paper to spare?

[dll2000]

13 minutes ago, soulman said:

Well for one thing it will reach the rural areas as well.  It's already happening but in a more isolated sense simply because there isn't enough population concentrated in one area for it spread as quickly and there are far less people for it to spread to.   Although less populace states have fewer cases their mortality rates are in most cases just as high or higher of those of more populace states.

The other issue is without far more testing we really don't know how many people are infected since many are asymptomatic or have very mild symptoms they may be ignoring but they can still spread that infection to others.  One third of those taken off that ship a week or so ago tested positive but showed no symptoms.  China has also said many of their positives showed few if any symptoms.

So were aren't even close to having a handle on just how many are infected.  That's where the danger lies and why the need for isolation until we can test more people in mass.  Then we may be able to send those who are healthy and those who've recovered back to work but we aren't there yet and won't be for quite awhile longer because we don't have the ability to test enough people just yet.

In any event based on what we know now we're down 'til the end of this month whether we like it or not so like we'd have to do in any natural disaster we do what we can to help each other and make the best of it.  Now, that said anyone got any toilet paper to spare?

But if there are all these 1000s more infected that don't know it and don't even have symptoms much less aren't dying then the death rate numbers are way, way off.

Like I said, it seems a very small percent of population is truly at risk here.   I don't doubt that the hospitals could be overwhelmed, but a large part of that is people and media hyping this as the Black Plague.

Hospitals are being overwhelmed right now by people who are healthy and are worried.

Heck if we just lied and announced that we had a cure and issued pills to everyone I bet the larger problem would be solved by the placebo effect.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bigbear72]

5 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

But if there are all these 1000s more infected that don't know it and don't even have symptoms much less aren't dying then the death rate numbers are way, way off.

Like I said, it seems a very small percent of population is truly at risk here.   I don't doubt that the hospitals could be overwhelmed, but a large part of that is people and media hyping this as the Black Plague.

Hospitals are being overwhelmed right now by people who are healthy and are worried.

Heck if we just lied and announced that we had a cure and issued pills to everyone I bet the larger problem would be solved by the placebo effect.

 

 

 

 

 

I will have to disagree with you here.  What that in fact would do is that for those who are infected but are asymptomatic, is it would encourage them to engage in activities that would infect people who are more susceptible to the virus.  That would be a very dangerous and irresponsible game to play.  I work in healthcare and am in meetings about this everyday.  Believe me when I tell you...there are factors about this virus and reasons to be cautious that most people don't understand.

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

30 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

But if there are all these 1000s more infected that don't know it and don't even have symptoms much less aren't dying then the death rate numbers are way, way off.

Like I said, it seems a very small percent of population is truly at risk here.   I don't doubt that the hospitals could be overwhelmed, but a large part of that is people and media hyping this as the Black Plague.

Hospitals are being overwhelmed right now by people who are healthy and are worried.

Heck if we just lied and announced that we had a cure and issued pills to everyone I bet the larger problem would be solved by the placebo effect.

 

 

 

 

 

Hospitals are turning away people that are really sick if they think that they have a decent chance to recover on their own right now, to keep room for people that will die if they don't get on a tube. I do not think there is an issue of hype, or hypochondriacs taking up space. If you can find me an instance of someone who got into an ICU just to make sure they're OK I would be all ears. 

You do have a point that the death rates might be off, frankly I kind of think me and the family had this a couple weeks ago and it was weird; no fever, but dry cough, tight chest, totally wiped out all day. No way to know as getting tested seems to be about as difficult as seeing a Dr, so we've been playing it extra safe, assuming we might be contagious and REALLY getting to know each other.  Even if the death rate ends up being 1% instead of 2, it's still going to be a LOT of people dead.  The hospitalization rate is just as big a problem as lets say its 8% instead of 15... that's still a huge number of people, and far more than the health care system can support.  Even the countries that have been aggressive about testing are still showing over 1%, and those countries also acted quickly and decisively, which I don't think you can really say about here.

As for the magic pill, I'm just going to say that I really like your football thoughts. 

[soulman]

1 hour ago, dll2000 said:

But if there are all these 1000s more infected that don't know it and don't even have symptoms much less aren't dying then the death rate numbers are way, way off.

Like I said, it seems a very small percent of population is truly at risk here.   I don't doubt that the hospitals could be overwhelmed, but a large part of that is people and media hyping this as the Black Plague.

Hospitals are being overwhelmed right now by people who are healthy and are worried.

Heck if we just lied and announced that we had a cure and issued pills to everyone I bet the larger problem would be solved by the placebo effect.

 

 

 

 

 

I think you should do a whole lot more research on your own.  All I'm gonna do is respond to you in bullet points.

1) Hospitals are not being overwhelmed by the healthy.  They're being overwhelmed by the sick and dying.

2) People who don't have symptoms can still spread the infection and they could eventually develop serious symptoms and die.

3) The ENTIRE population is at risk.  There is NO IMMUNITY to this at present.  Listen to what the docs are saying not the politicians.

4) And that last sentence is too ridiculous to even merit a comment.  No one is imagining being deathly ill.

 

Case in point.  Roughly 3 weeks ago on a Friday AM I felt I was coming down with a cold which is very rare for me.  Since I had a weekly jam scheduled with some other players I wisely called and opted out.  By Friday night my body ached and I had a raspy dry cough so I took some cold meds that would help me to sleep and turned in early.

On Sat. AM I woke up feeling like I got hit by two fully loaded semis and I was driving a Smart Car.  Low grade fever, body aches, massive headache, and that same dry cough I couldn't shake.  I hydrated like crazy and tried to sweat it out of me but no luck.  I just got sicker.  By Sun. night I'd had it.  I had chest pains and trouble breathing on top of the rest.

I wasn't strong enough to even safely drive three blocks to the ER so I called 911 for transport by the EMTs.  In the ER they bagged me, started me on oxygen, and began a work up to figure out what was goin' on.  They had no ability to test for the COVID but did a nose swab and diagnosed influenza type "A" but do we really know if they couldn't even test for the bad stuff?

By early AM (Mon.) I was in good enough shape to be sent home to work my way through it.  I'm gonna assume type "A" was correct because the Tamiflu did help and the cough medication with codeine helped subdue the cough.  But it wasn't until the following Friday or Sat. that I actually felt "over it" and as predicted the residual hung around for another 3-4 days.

I haven't been that sick since I had a strep infection when I was 17.  It practically takes an act of Congress to ever get me in a hospital again and yet I had to do it.  I was that sick and if that was just the same old garden variety flu many of us have had and the COVID is far, far worse I sure as hell don't want it.  And no placebo would have convinced me I wasn't ill either.

That experience has given me due respect for what others are facing and I've been isolating myself as much as possible ever since returning from the hospital because that shot of flu still does not make me immune to the COVID strain.  So you can do as you choose just as I have but please, don't downplay the severity of this stuff.  It's bad ju ju brother.  It really is.

[dll2000]

Well there 

28 minutes ago, soulman said:

I think you should do a whole lot more research on your own.  All I'm gonna do is respond to you in bullet points.

1) Hospitals are not being overwhelmed by the healthy.  They're being overwhelmed by the sick and dying.

2) People who don't have symptoms can still spread the infection and they could eventually develop serious symptoms and die.

3) The ENTIRE population is at risk.  There is NO IMMUNITY to this at present.  Listen to what the docs are saying not the politicians.

4) And that last sentence is too ridiculous to even merit a comment.  No one is imagining being deathly ill.

 

Case in point.  Roughly 3 weeks ago on a Friday AM I felt I was coming down with a cold which is very rare for me.  Since I had a weekly jam scheduled with some other players I wisely called and opted out.  By Friday night my body ached and I had a raspy dry cough so I took some cold meds that would help me to sleep and turned in early.

On Sat. AM I woke up feeling like I got hit by two fully loaded semis and I was driving a Smart Car.  Low grade fever, body aches, massive headache, and that same dry cough I couldn't shake.  I hydrated like crazy and tried to sweat it out of me but no luck.  I just got sicker.  By Sun. night I'd had it.  I had chest pains and trouble breathing on top of the rest.

I wasn't strong enough to even safely drive three blocks to the ER so I called 911 for transport by the EMTs.  In the ER they bagged me, started me on oxygen, and began a work up to figure out what was goin' on.  They had no ability to test for the COVID but did a nose swab and diagnosed influenza type "A" but do we really know if they couldn't even test for the bad stuff?

By early AM (Mon.) I was in good enough shape to be sent home to work my way through it.  I'm gonna assume type "A" was correct because the Tamiflu did help and the cough medication with codeine helped subdue the cough.  But it wasn't until the following Friday or Sat. that I actually felt "over it" and as predicted the residual hung around for another 3-4 days.

I haven't been that sick since I had a strep infection when I was 17.  It practically takes an act of Congress to ever get me in a hospital again and yet I had to do it.  I was that sick and if that was just the same old garden variety flu many of us have had and the COVID is far, far worse I sure as hell don't want it.  And no placebo would have convinced me I wasn't ill either.

That experience has given me due respect for what others are facing and I've been isolating myself as much as possible ever since returning from the hospital because that shot of flu still does not make me immune to the COVID strain.  So you can do as you choose just as I have but please, don't downplay the severity of this stuff.  It's bad ju ju brother.  It really is.

I'm not downplaying it.

Of course if you are sick or dying you will pay any amount to be better.

I am saying as a society from a macro point of view what we are doing to solve the problem will start a Great Depression if it lasts too long.  A lot of people die in depressions too.

Sometimes there are no good answers only a choice of bad ones and which one is least bad.  

 

[dll2000]

I also lost 20 lbs with an undiagnosed flu in January this year.  Not as bad as yours, but was really miserable.  Chest pains, aches, whole works.  Couldn't move, couldn't eat.  

Whole family had it.  We didn't go hospital we just rode it out, but it was miserable.  But we are younger and reasonably healthy and we survived.   

When I said placebo I meant for hypochondriacs who get scared by constant brigade of media reports.   Both their fear and its symptoms can be real and placebo's have been proven to be real for many as well.  The mind is a powerful thing.  I'm not saying a placebo cures everything.  Kind of thing I mean.  People get offended.   

We have to be able to discuss facts and do a cost/benefit analysis with out personal feelings when dealing with decisions of great magnitude.

It sounds callus, but if we banned cars we would solve global warming or climate change, environmental concerns and save many more lives from just accidents than COVID will ever kill if we all ran around and sneezed on each other every day.  Not to mention just cost in injuries.   

But banning cars means an economic collapse of western world and a severe downturn in quality of life and personal freedom.   I drive past 6 homemade crosses every day to work.  All teenagers or younger.  All died in car crashes.   Don't you care about them?   Their families? You see where these arguments can go?  

How many children and elderly could we save in dangerous neighborhoods if we had the army patrol the streets and confiscate guns and weapons from young people and enforcing curfews?  

No more mothers crying at teenage funerals.  

But at what cost is that?

 

 

 

 

[soulman]

3 hours ago, dll2000 said:

Well there 

I'm not downplaying it.

Of course if you are sick or dying you will pay any amount to be better.

I am saying as a society from a macro point of view what we are doing to solve the problem will start a Great Depression if it lasts too long.  A lot of people die in depressions too.

Sometimes there are no good answers only a choice of bad ones and which one is least bad.  

 

The economics surrounding the start of the Great Depression were much different than what we have today. I fully expect a recession to happen globally.  That would be hard to avoid.  But I don't expect the kind of catastrophic impact that Amerca dealt with in the '30s when there were no social safety nets, banks closed barring depositors from their savings, the damage from the decline in the stock market was much more severe due to a lack of regulation which came a few years later, and the govt. had nowhere near the borrowing capacity it has today.

IMHO there may even be more risk of over stimulation and too much cash coupled with too little supply caused by an extended shut down of industries globally that can cause some spikes in inflation.  What we may be far more likely to see in the future is an electorate and govt. that will finally turn away from failed supply side economics and a return to Keynesian type economics again.   Some will cry out that it's socialism (it's not) but then we've always had social welfare programs and not just for the poor.  What would you call the bank bailout after 2008?  How about the farm bailouts due to the tariffs and China's response to them if not a form of socialism?

But with that we should end this because although I'm talking economics it can also be seen as straying to close to politics and though I may like to go there for all kinds of reasons I won't.  All I can say is let's save the people.  They're our workers and our consumers and we'll need them to help fight back from all of this once it's all over.  Businesses will reopen and corporations will recover because as we've already learned this economy is too big and to important globally to be allowed to fail......so it won't.  And the concern for that is no more or less on the minds of all of us than the COVID so we will fight that as well and we will find ways to survive it as we have in the past.

Edited April 2, 2020 by soulman

[Heinz D.]

6 hours ago, dll2000 said:

Basically if you are healthy you are going to live and devolop anti-bodies if you get it.  Right?   Or you have 99% chance of living which is basically same thing.  

 

Nope. 

[Heinz D.]

2 hours ago, dll2000 said:

But banning cars means an economic collapse of western world and a severe downturn in quality of life and personal freedom.   I drive past 6 homemade crosses every day to work.  All teenagers or younger.  All died in car crashes.   Don't you care about them?   Their families? You see where these arguments can go?  

No.

It's not even SOMEWHAT comparable. 

But, back to your larger point--are you actually advocating toddlers die in service of the U.S. economy? 

[dll2000]

1 hour ago, Heinz D. said:

No.

It's not even SOMEWHAT comparable. 

But, back to your larger point--are you actually advocating toddlers die in service of the U.S. economy? 

Yes of course I want toddlers to die.  That was my whole point.  🙄

Okay  on that note I am done.  I have zero power to effect anything anyway so no worries.  What will be will be.  

Back to Bears talk.  Sorry for diversion.  

[soulman]

6 hours ago, dll2000 said:

I also lost 20 lbs with an undiagnosed flu in January this year.  Not as bad as yours, but was really miserable.  Chest pains, aches, whole works.  Couldn't move, couldn't eat.  

Whole family had it.  We didn't go hospital we just rode it out, but it was miserable.  But we are younger and reasonably healthy and we survived.   

When I said placebo I meant for hypochondriacs who get scared by constant brigade of media reports.   Both their fear and its symptoms can be real and placebo's have been proven to be real for many as well.  The mind is a powerful thing.  I'm not saying a placebo cures everything.  Kind of thing I mean.  People get offended.   

We have to be able to discuss facts and do a cost/benefit analysis with out personal feelings when dealing with decisions of great magnitude.

It sounds callus, but if we banned cars we would solve global warming or climate change, environmental concerns and save many more lives from just accidents than COVID will ever kill if we all ran around and sneezed on each other every day.  Not to mention just cost in injuries.   

But banning cars means an economic collapse of western world and a severe downturn in quality of life and personal freedom.   I drive past 6 homemade crosses every day to work.  All teenagers or younger.  All died in car crashes.   Don't you care about them?   Their families? You see where these arguments can go?  

How many children and elderly could we save in dangerous neighborhoods if we had the army patrol the streets and confiscate guns and weapons from young people and enforcing curfews?  

No more mothers crying at teenage funerals.  

But at what cost is that?

 

 

 

 

No doubt, society in general has a lot of ills that need our attention but you and others should also realize there are powerful forces that are opposed to curing some of them simply because they profit from their very existence.  Welcome to capitalism gone wild.

We could cover a laundry list of stuff that the world would be better off without including wars stoked by global arms manufacturers who make billions of dollars selling weaponry to anyone with enough money to buy it.  Eisenhower warned us of this over 60 years ago and it's made no difference at all.  Plowshares were beaten into swords during WWII as companies who made them were converted into making weaponry and it became so lucrative no one yet has seen fit to put a stop to it so every day we still live under a threat of nuclear war.

Cars do kill people and contribute mightily to global warming as well but as a society we've adapted to their negatives and have continued to make them safer and pollute less.  But we'll never stop auto accidents entirely in our lifetimes unless every car on the road is driven by some fail safe computer that tracks our car and every other car in it's vicinity.  Cars would become like sophisticated combat aircraft but even those crash periodically so all we would do is lower risk.  It can't ever be 100% eliminated.  Call it **** happens.

Every free society on the planet will continue to experience some of these problems and social ills because it's the price we pay for the freedoms we enjoy.  Along with the good comes some bad simply because all people within any society are not good people.  That will never change but it doesn't excuse us from using logic and common sense to fight against what we can and do out best to change it for the better.  That should be a goal of each and every one of us but unfortunately it's not so all of those woes continue.

I'm a "Boomer" and our era is nearly over but it would be wrong to think that we don't still have enough energy for one or two more good fights to the finish trying to change things and finish some work I believe we may have left undone.  I can't speak for everyone else but I haven't put down my sword just yet and I won't until we slay a few more dragons that are dragging us all down right now.  Maybe just maybe this pandemic will help us to realize how much we depend on one another and the forces that have chosen to divide us because it suited their selfish needs will be undone and we can start behaving like one nation under God again.  I hope we can do at least that much for ourselves and for children and grand children.  We didn't make this mess but we can damn well help clean it up.

[soulman]

I wouldn't keep pushing isolation if it wasn't so damn important that everyone of us should know this.  And I am surely not looking to find fault with those who chose to exercise their own judgement but I'm also not above doing what I can to influence it.

For anyone who believes that small town America is gonna be exempt from feeling this as well and we should just put those folks back to work please take a moment to read this and in doing so realize that the Governor of Kentucky was one of the very first in the nation to order self isolation and for non-essential businesses to close.  As a result Kentucky has faired better than it's neighbors but when folks chose to violate his orders on large gatherings this was a result of that choice by these people in a small rural KY county.

Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear told the story of a revival meeting held in md-March in Hopkins County that infected 28 with the coronavirus and has killed two people.

A church revival that took place in mid-March has been linked to at least 28 cases of the novel coronavirus and two deaths in a small Kentucky community.

Hopkins County "has been hit really, really hard" by the event, Gov. Andy Beshear said Wednesday while addressing the revival.

"When people violate the rules and the recommendations that are out there … (this is) the significant harm it can cause," said Beshear, whose family is connected to the county.

They brought in a preacher from Texas for this event.  No social distancing was practiced.  When several family members began getting sick, the church told everyone on social media that it was just the flu and not to self quarantine.

The end result:

Dozens of residents have since tested positive for the coronavirus, and at least 100 have been placed in quarantine.

The cases have stretched from Hopkins County into Muhlenberg, Clark and Warren counties, with a nursing home, a business and an ambulance service all linked to the outbreak.

Two people — including a 77-year-old man — have died.

Of the confirmed cases in Hopkins County, the youngest is 23 and the oldest is 79, officials said.

 

So I don't care if you live in NY City or in Bumphuc, Wyoming which is 26 miles from Where In The Hell Am I, WY following the guidelines laid out nationally regarding social distancing is no BS.  It's important because for all we know that Texas preacher may have been a carrier who showed no symptoms at all yet people were infected.  Or it may have been someone else who showed no symptoms yet 100 people have now been placed under quarantine, dozens have tested positive, and two have died all because a church group decided to violate the guidelines and then told their congregation not to worry and there was no need to self-quarantine.  Bad info can getcha killed..

So if anyone truly believes that through prayer God will protect them then my advice is you must pray to a different God than I do.