Scouting Potential Bears Selections

[soulman]

1 hour ago, beardown3231 said:

Chinn is a freak of nature. What he lacks in instincts can perhaps be made up in athleticism. Amos didn't have great instincts either. I think when you're surrounded by All Pro's, you 1) don't need to be great yourself, from a player's perspective and 2) don't need to fill that spot with such a high pick & arguably greater needs elsewhere, from a GM's perspective.

I don't doubt his talent but if athleticism alone could make up for a lack of instincts and football IQ there'd be far few busts.  I have no doubt that athletically Iggy is head and shoulders above what Kwiatkoski ever was or ever could be but who played?

And as for Amos I'm gonna disagree with you.  Adrian Amos is not an incredible athlete but he is a very intelligent instinctive player who was seldom caught out of position.  That can make up for a lack of athleticism.  He was never flashy but always dependable.

I'm not averse to drafting Chinn or Duggar but what I am saying is that with both we may not have a day one starter on our hands any more than we had with Shaheen who was also advertised as a bit of a freak ala "Baby Gronk".....remember.

[beardown3231]

1 hour ago, soulman said:

I don't doubt his talent but if athleticism alone could make up for a lack of instincts and football IQ there'd be far few busts.  I have no doubt that athletically Iggy is head and shoulders above what Kwiatkoski ever was or ever could be but who played?

And as for Amos I'm gonna disagree with you.  Adrian Amos is not an incredible athlete but he is a very intelligent instinctive player who was seldom caught out of position.  That can make up for a lack of athleticism.  He was never flashy but always dependable.

I'm not averse to drafting Chinn or Duggar but what I am saying is that with both we may not have a day one starter on our hands any more than we had with Shaheen who was also advertised as a bit of a freak ala "Baby Gronk".....remember.

Iggy had a better 40 and 3 cone but Kwiatkoski had a better 20 yard shuttle and broad jump. Regardless, if Chinn comes in and is behind instinctively, that's why they kept Bush and signed Lucas and retainer DHC, right?

I also remember a ton of small school guys who have panned out, including maybe the 2 greatest players in league history, but I know I'm somewhat alone in the small school boat. Either way, my point is Chinn doesn't need to come in and be a star. He needs to be decent; if he needs to be a Pro Bowler right away, chances are they had 2+ significant injuries on D... and on that note that's why I lean against a SS at 43 or 50 because the needs are greater on offense. Things are bleak there, especially on the OL and especially in the speed department at RB, TE and WR.

Edited April 5, 2020 by beardown3231

[soulman]

1 hour ago, beardown3231 said:

Iggy had a better 40 and 3 cone but Kwiatkoski had a better 20 yard shuttle and broad jump. Regardless, if Chinn comes in and is behind instinctively, that's why they kept Bush and signed Lucas and retainer DHC, right?

Phuc the Combine stuff.  Watch their game tapes.  Iggy is a faster and more athletic individual period.   Kwit is an over achiever and a much better football player.  He gets 110% out of what he has to offer.

If we spend a 2nd round pick on Chinn it shouldn't be to have him playing behind Bush or Lucas.  Those two 2nd rounders should be guys who can start of be more than just casual contributors.  I'm not saying Chinn won't only that a lack in great instincts is a red flag.

My other issue with instincts is that it's tough to teach them.  Most players seem to either have them or they don't.  Kwit is an example of a kid with more limited athletic ability but far above average instincts.  Deon Bush is a kid with terrific athletic ability but his instincts were poor in college and I'm not certain they've improved much or we wouldn't even be talking about drafting a SS.

It's his 5th year in the NFL and he's playing for about $100k more in gtd $$$ than he got as a rookie.  What does that tell us about him?

[beardown3231]

36 minutes ago, soulman said:

Phuc the Combine stuff.  Watch their game tapes.  Iggy is a faster and more athletic individual period.   Kwit is an over achiever and a much better football player.  He gets 110% out of what he has to offer.

If we spend a 2nd round pick on Chinn it shouldn't be to have him playing behind Bush or Lucas.  Those two 2nd rounders should be guys who can start of be more than just casual contributors.  I'm not saying Chinn won't only that a lack in great instincts is a red flag.

My other issue with instincts is that it's tough to teach them.  Most players seem to either have them or they don't.  Kwit is an example of a kid with more limited athletic ability but far above average instincts.  Deon Bush is a kid with terrific athletic ability but his instincts were poor in college and I'm not certain they've improved much or we wouldn't even be talking about drafting a SS.

It's his 5th year in the NFL and he's playing for about $100k more in gtd $$$ than he got as a rookie.  What does that tell us about him?

I guess we'll agree to disagree. I'm not necessarily saying Chinn has poor instincts, rather I think that's a generalization being made- by you- because he's a freak. Maybe he was such a freak at SIU that he didn't have to show those instincts. He was likely bigger and faster than most if not all of his competition, and maybe when he gets to the NFL those instincts will show.

I agree on the Bush/Lucas/DHC stuff. My point is that if it does take Chinn long to acclimate, that's why those 3 guys were kept right? For the depth we all crave? Just because we all are talking about drafting a SS that high doesn't mean Pace is talking about it.

Let me ask you- would you rather they draft a Pro Bowler at SS, WR or G at 43 and 50, given the way the current roster is built? Give me the latter two.

Edited April 5, 2020 by beardown3231

[AZBearsFan]

1 hour ago, beardown3231 said:

Let me ask you- would you rather they draft a Pro Bowler at SS, WR or G at 43 and 50, given the way the current roster is built? Give me the latter two.

I agree with you, but it’s worth noting the NEED at WR is for a guy to be Bernard Berrian to ARob’s Muhsin Muhammad. While taking Aiyuk or Reagor in round 2 is something with which I am 100% on board we can possibly fill that role a bit lower down as well with guys like Jefferson or Hightower. All 3 of SS/WR/G are positions where every year multiple guys taken in the latter half of the draft are able to be solid year one contributors. 

[WindyCity]

My ideal cloud

Josh Jones

Austin Jackson

Cesar Ruiz

Lloyd Cushenberry 

kJ Hamler

Jalen Regaor

Brandon Aiyuk

Jeremy Chinn

 

I think Aiyuk and Jones have a 0% shot of being there.

[soulman]

2 hours ago, beardown3231 said:

I guess we'll agree to disagree. I'm not necessarily saying Chinn has poor instincts, rather I think that's a generalization being made- by you- because he's a freak. Maybe he was such a freak at SIU that he didn't have to show those instincts. He was likely bigger and faster than most if not all of his competition, and maybe when he gets to the NFL those instincts will show.

BD I'm gonna let you off the hook here because you haven't known me for very long but I never just make **** up.  If I posted it as more of a personal opinion or an observation I'll say that.  If it's coming from a scouting report I won't say that.  You can choose to believe whatever you like I'm gonna believe what's in his scouting report.

Look, you either have great football instincts or you don't.  You don't turn them on and off.  You're either instinctive or you're not.  There is no such thing as "not using them" because you're such a freak or so talented you don't need them because if you had them they would only make you that much better.  Over time better instincts might be developed with good coaching (or not) but if the scouts are saying he's lacking in great football instincts and his football IQ is below average that is not gonna magically show up as soon as he signs a pro contract OK?

Overview

Safety prospect with compelling size, speed and athletic ability. He has man cover skills. Very willing and able as a tackler, but despite his diverse skill set, his effectiveness can wane when asked to multitask. Chinn is at his best when he's actively engaged and not sitting in space dissecting what comes next. His ball skills and athleticism are strengths that help define his value and teams will need to find ways to put him in position to utilize both without exposing his inconsistent field awareness. He might find a future role as a big nickel or a cover linebacker who can drag tight ends around the field in sub-packages.

Weaknesses

• Not as instinctive as he needs to be
• Eye-balance needs improvement
• Plays through a straw when asked to cover, losing play development around him
• Football IQ is below average at this time
• Bait routes pull him out of deep coverage duties
• Could struggle in digesting combo routes
• Slow to read keys and flow to football from the box
• Will need to eliminate head-ducking as chop-down tackler

[soulman]

2 hours ago, beardown3231 said:

Let me ask you- would you rather they draft a Pro Bowler at SS, WR or G at 43 and 50, given the way the current roster is built? Give me the latter two.

I think I've already indicated I'd rank a playmaking WR and an OG ahead of a SS.

Chinn's current limitations could see him falling farther than his pure athleticism might indicate. I would call him a risky pick as high in round two as we pick.  There will be better players still on the board.  Although Chinn may have more upside if he improves his knowledge of a defense IMHO Kyle Dugger is a much safer pick now and I don't believe he'll come off the board that early either.

In our secondary SS is probably the 4th most important position and maybe the 10th or 11th most important position on the entire defense.  I believe we will draft a Safety but I also don't believe it will be in the 2nd round.