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Canadian Saint

CB PJ Williams returns to the Saints

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Cheap, versatile, and knows the system. Not a guy you want to rely on, but you could probably do worse with a #4-5 CB.

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17 hours ago, sammymvpknight said:

Cheap, versatile, and knows the system. Not a guy you want to rely on, but you could probably do worse with a #4-5 CB.

What's frustrating about a lot of our corners, outside of Lattimore, lately is that they all give us stretches of 2-3 games where they look like legit #1 caliber CBs and then look barely practice squad caliber.  I mean even Apple had those like 4-5 game stretch when Lattimore was injured/limited that he looked like a legit #1 CB that would cost $10+ mil in the offseason only to become a nickel guy again.

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17 hours ago, sammymvpknight said:

Cheap, versatile, and knows the system. Not a guy you want to rely on, but you could probably do worse with a #4-5 CB.

I wonder if takes deveopment CB off the table with one of our earlier picks. I mean with P. Rob and PJ back as CB 3 and 4 respectively, we don't really need a high pick if we're going all in next year.

Furthermore, I wonder if we double dip into the LBers. We have Davis, Anzalone and Robertson for vets. Anzalone has had season ending injuries 2/3 seasons. Robertson is a ST only player at this junction. Techincally we have Kiko, but he's back earliest next Jan if I understand timelines. Taking a LB in the 1st and 4th, with a WR in the 3rd makes sense if you're trying fill 2 different spots in your LB group.

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26 minutes ago, Raves said:

What's frustrating about a lot of our corners, outside of Lattimore, lately is that they all give us stretches of 2-3 games where they look like legit #1 caliber CBs and then look barely practice squad caliber.  I mean even Apple had those like 4-5 game stretch when Lattimore was injured/limited that he looked like a legit #1 CB that would cost $10+ mil in the offseason only to become a nickel guy again.

Agreed about Apple. The challenge in the NFL is that you always have to be a step ahead. If you aren't improving, you are getting worse...because the NFL will learn your tendencies. I tend to think that is probably what happens to most of these CBs who have temporary success. Even Lattimore has been figured out to an extent, but he's so talented that he's working from a much higher baseline. I think that Janoris Jenkins gets us stability at the CB that I'm not sure the Saints have EVER had at the CB position before. Even in the days of Greer and Porter...Porter was very inconsistent. This is a very good secondary. I still don't trust Marcus Williams but even in spite of that I think that the Saints have a strong argument of having the best secondary in the NFL.

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2 minutes ago, Canadian Saint said:

I wonder if takes deveopment CB off the table with one of our earlier picks. I mean with P. Rob and PJ back as CB 3 and 4 respectively, we don't really need a high pick if we're going all in next year.

Furthermore, I wonder if we double dip into the LBers. We have Davis, Anzalone and Robertson for vets. Anzalone has had season ending injuries 2/3 seasons. Robertson is a ST only player at this junction. Techincally we have Kiko, but he's back earliest next Jan if I understand timelines. Taking a LB in the 1st and 4th, with a WR in the 3rd makes sense if you're trying fill 2 different spots in your LB group.

The Saints, unfortunately, don't value the LB very much it seems. It has been a signficant weakness for over a decade...but little changes. A legit FA signing (Davis, Vilma) gets added like once every twenty years. A LB is selected in the first round like once every twenty years (and they picked the wrong one last time in Anthony). I don't think that the LB is particularly strong in this draft. I think that there might be some value there in the late first round...but I'd be very happy with just getting one highly regarded LB. It's easily the Saints biggest need at this point. A WR can be had in rounds 3-5...there are tons of good ones this year. I wouldn't say CB is off the table, but I think that it is likely that an incoming CB will probably be a #4 or #5 CB on our team, even if they are a first rounder.

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3 hours ago, Raves said:

What's frustrating about a lot of our corners, outside of Lattimore, lately is that they all give us stretches of 2-3 games where they look like legit #1 caliber CBs and then look barely practice squad caliber.  I mean even Apple had those like 4-5 game stretch when Lattimore was injured/limited that he looked like a legit #1 CB that would cost $10+ mil in the offseason only to become a nickel guy again.

It’s been like that for a while. Patrick Robinson and Malcolm Jenkins in their first stints here were the same way. 

Kenny Vaccaro would fluctuate anywhere from bench warmer to bordering on star, week to week he’d ride that roller coaster. 

Brandon Browner and Jairus Byrd both underperformed here, and Corey White probably should’ve developed better than he did. 

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I'm going broken record here.
When are we ever going to make a change from our current DB coach/es?
Time & time again, we get really good talent that comes to us, and they fall apart.
Lattimore was a stud in his rookie season, coming out of the Ohio system. P-Rob & Jenkins, same. Played great at first, went elsewhere and accelled, then (P-Rob) comes back and can barely crack the starting lineup. Apple played well at first, too. 

I hope we see a change, but there's something wrong at the top.

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7 hours ago, sammymvpknight said:

The Saints, unfortunately, don't value the LB very much it seems. It has been a signficant weakness for over a decade...but little changes. A legit FA signing (Davis, Vilma) gets added like once every twenty years. A LB is selected in the first round like once every twenty years (and they picked the wrong one last time in Anthony). I don't think that the LB is particularly strong in this draft. I think that there might be some value there in the late first round...but I'd be very happy with just getting one highly regarded LB. It's easily the Saints biggest need at this point. A WR can be had in rounds 3-5...there are tons of good ones this year. I wouldn't say CB is off the table, but I think that it is likely that an incoming CB will probably be a #4 or #5 CB on our team, even if they are a first rounder.

While you are definitely right that the org. don't value LB much (Payton's very open about the positions he deems important), I do hope they learn from their mistakes. Last year multiple losses can be attributed to our LB talent (or lack therof). Considering how much we struggled with crossing and underneath routes later in the season, since we're going all in this year, I do expect us to an LB with either the 1st or 3rd round pick at the latest.

I wouldn't mind picking up another big target when it comes to WR in the 3rd or 4th. Brees deep ball is gone, but on short and intermediate throws he's still money. Having another big body would really streth defenses thin.

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2 hours ago, Mid Iowa said:

I'm going broken record here.
When are we ever going to make a change from our current DB coach/es?
Time & time again, we get really good talent that comes to us, and they fall apart.
Lattimore was a stud in his rookie season, coming out of the Ohio system. P-Rob & Jenkins, same. Played great at first, went elsewhere and accelled, then (P-Rob) comes back and can barely crack the starting lineup. Apple played well at first, too. 

I hope we see a change, but there's something wrong at the top.

You're not wrong at all.

We've seen what the addition of Nielsen and Nolan have done to our D-line and LBers. Davis become one of the better LBers in the league. Anzalone became a starter. Hell we made Kiko Alonso look servicable. I won't mention all the things Nielsen has done because it'll take too long.

I think the issue with secondary coaching is two-fold. One is definitely ability, and Aaron Glenn is responsible for that. Another is scheme. Dennis Allen was our secondary coach before he became our DC. We've seen multiple times in multiple seasons our CBs complain about our scheme. Every year our secondary starts out like trash, Allen simplifies, secondary improves, but eventually other teams catch on and by then it's too late to change the scheme again. That exact sequence has happened two years running. Allen really has to find the sweet spot coming into this season because the results from both years have been a secondary that isn't reliable.

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