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2018 College Prospect Thread


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44 minutes ago, bMiller031 said:

Simply not true. Most of the best QBs of the post-PManning/TBrady/DBrees generation are so effective BECAUSE of their athleticism and ability to extend plays as a second option (i.e. Rodgers, Wilson, Wentz, Watson, Mariota, etc). 

Being a scrambling qb is different than running  as your second option. We can break down the differences if youd like.

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1 hour ago, BroncoBruin said:

The more I see Baker Mayfield, the more I love his game. 

Imagine landing Barkley round 1, Mayfield round 2, a right tackle in free agency. We could be the Seahawks West. When they had Marshawn and Wilson playing at a high level.

 

Having a ball control  o would do wonders for the defense

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24 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

Being a scrambling qb is different than running  as your second option. We can break down the differences if youd like.

Your quote:

"A qb who relies on running as their second option rather than reading a defense almost always fails. Its human nature."

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16 minutes ago, bMiller031 said:

Your quote:

"A qb who relies on running as their second option rather than reading a defense almost always fails. Its human nature."

And most of the qbs you named don't run as a second option. They are scrambling to throw. Therefore they're great at ancipatory throwing.

Mariota fits the bill as a run qb when the first option isn't there. And theres a reason he and Cam haven't  showed much improvement from their rookie qb to now. Running as a second option is a large reason. Run as a second read qb they always plateau.

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The funny thing about the narratives about "running QBs" is they would probably give teams a better chance to win than "pocket passers" that just aren't franchise QBs. Brock Osweiler is a one read QB. Ryan Fitzpatrick is a one read QB. Josh McCown is a one read QB. The list goes on. NFL teams would probably do better with an athletic QB coming in as a backup over these trash QBs that aren't actual pocket passers. But NFL teams aren't progressive. And don't put faith into their coaching staffs.

Being a QB is clearly freaking hard. What, there are 10-15 franchise QBs in the NFL? The issues I have are with the evaluation process. There are real things that QBs that are willing to run need to manage and improve on that non-running QBs don't. Injury prevention is huge and it killed RG3's career and looks to be hurting Cam's. 

But here's the thing. NOW you can be all complimentary of Russ Wilson, for example, but they were saying the saaaaaame crap about him that they say about other running QBs a few years ago. That he was a one read guy that's too small and can't play in the pocket. Every Bronco fan was saying that going into the SB. Well, he got coaching. And he got an opportunity to improve. And look - now he is a top 5 QB with an incredibly valuable skillset.

Not enough running QBs get that opportunity. Why is that? Brock Osweiler can be the worst QB in the league and still have a job, but people don't want to take chances on great athletes at QB?

I haven't watched Lamar enough. But people box running QB's into a narrative that may or may not be true. Running is a skill as a QB that gets projected as a negative in the evaluation process when it's actually a positive. It's dumb. Players can develop into pocket passers whether they can run or not. And there aren't many QBs that can sling it out of the pocket right out of college, so it's a learning curve that all prospects go through

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28 minutes ago, champ11 said:

The funny thing about the narratives about "running QBs" is they would probably give teams a better chance to win than "pocket passers" that just aren't franchise QBs. Brock Osweiler is a one read QB. Ryan Fitzpatrick is a one read QB. Josh McCown is a one read QB. The list goes on. NFL teams would probably do better with an athletic QB coming in as a backup over these trash QBs that aren't actual pocket passers. But NFL teams aren't progressive. And don't put faith into their coaching staffs.

Being a QB is clearly freaking hard. What, there are 10-15 franchise QBs in the NFL? The issues I have are with the evaluation process. There are real things that QBs that are willing to run need to manage and improve on that non-running QBs don't. Injury prevention is huge and it killed RG3's career and looks to be hurting Cam's. 

But here's the thing. NOW you can be all complimentary of Russ Wilson, for example, but they were saying the saaaaaame crap about him that they say about other running QBs a few years ago. That he was a one read guy that's too small and can't play in the pocket. Every Bronco fan was saying that going into the SB. Well, he got coaching. And he got an opportunity to improve. And look - now he is a top 5 QB with an incredibly valuable skillset.

Not enough running QBs get that opportunity. Why is that? Brock Osweiler can be the worst QB in the league and still have a job, but people don't want to take chances on great athletes at QB?

I haven't watched Lamar enough. But people box running QB's into a narrative that may or may not be true. Running is a skill as a QB that gets projected as a negative in the evaluation process when it's actually a positive. It's dumb. Players can develop into pocket passers whether they can run or not. And there aren't many QBs that can sling it out of the pocket right out of college, so it's a learning curve that all prospects go through

Russell Wilson was always steady eddy going back to his college days. The only issues with him were height. He even ran a prostyle offense in college. Had he been taller he would of been a top 10 pick no question.

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I don't know what John Elway saw in brock to pick him a round or two above Cousins and wilson. And I also don't know what Elway saw in Brandon Weeden.

At Qb when you're going after a prospect to backup a franchise qb why go for potential? Potential just means you haven't done anything yet.

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34 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

I don't know what John Elway saw in brock to pick him a round or two above Cousins and wilson. And I also don't know what Elway saw in Brandon Weeden.

At Qb when you're going after a prospect to backup a franchise qb why go for potential? Potential just means you haven't done anything yet.

This is what scares me about drafting a QB under Elway. We will end up with Rudolph or Allen

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I'm curious why posters refer to Brock as the worst QB in the league.

I didn't follow him when he went to Houston. I didn't care. In a Broncos uniform though he's played pretty well. Without the comebacks he directed we don't even go to the SB, let alone win it.

He played fine yesterday, although drops really killed us.

Brocks play was not why we got blown out.

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58 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

I'm curious why posters refer to Brock as the worst QB in the league.

I didn't follow him when he went to Houston. I didn't care. In a Broncos uniform though he's played pretty well. Without the comebacks he directed we don't even go to the SB, let alone win it.

He played fine yesterday, although drops really killed us.

Brocks play was not why we got blown out.

Yesterday he wasn’t the problem for sure.  

But against better D he is easy pickings.   Too slow in his D reads and progressions. Not enough pocket awareness.  Longer throwing motion.  And worst of all he doesn’t look safeties off.  At his height it means everyone gets a jump on his throws because they see his eyes.  

Against vulnerable pass D’s he’s going to have some success.  NE is going to give up yards but they’ve tightened up their RZ D.  Against good pass rush teams we are toast with Brock as QB.  

Consider this stat vs Phi...I’m not a huge QBR fan and obv. it was more than just him that day but it’s indicative of when he’s bad how bad it gets...

 

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I don't know what John Elway saw in brock to pick him a round or two above Cousins and wilson. And I also don't know what Elway saw in Brandon Weeden.

In the case of Brock and Lynch, he saw a cannon arm and elite measurable/frame. He overlooked the mental aspect of the game and thought he could coach up their brains from the ground.

With Weeden, he saw an NFL ready player with, again, a cannon for an arm. He wanted a quick split from Tebow and if he didn't get Manning, he wanted to somehow turn a late R1 into a immediate starter at QB. Weeden, to him (And most other draft pundits) was the best option to step in from day 1, especially that late in the draft.

I worry that Elway still puts too much emphasis on measurables. I don't want Allen and while there is argument for Lamar, I still prefer the passing acumen of Rosen, Darnold and Mayfield. I am fully convinced that Lamar is going to take huge hits in the league and miss a lot of time. He is the closest thing to Vick/RG3 athletically to come out but I really hate  his running style. Its straight out of Madden. Electric to watch until he gets concussed, fumbles or otherwise ends up out of the game.

Quote

But here's the thing. NOW you can be all complimentary of Russ Wilson, for example, but they were saying the saaaaaame crap about him that they say about other running QBs a few years ago. That he was a one read guy that's too small and can't play in the pocket. Every Bronco fan was saying that going into the SB. Well, he got coaching. And he got an opportunity to improve. And look - now he is a top 5 QB with an incredibly valuable skillset.

IDK about this. Russ always was a run-to-pass player. He had a cannon coming out but was super smart and could make numerous reads. Literally the only reason he fell was height, and back then it was a legit concern. The only player in the modern era that was an elite QB under or around 6'00 was Brees who seemed like such an outlier. Well, Russ proved to be an outlier as well. There were also concerns that he could switch to baseball at the time, something that's not talked about enough when approaching why he dropped. People didn't see Russ as a one-read athlete playing QB, they saw him as a maxed out midget who could game manage a bit but didn't have the potential to take over in this league, ala Seneca Wallace. They were all wrong.

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For the record, the biggest reason Wilson slid to the 4th round was because of stupid concerns about his height, IIRC. It was well known that he was a proficient passer, even in college, but he's incredibly short, and I think that had a lot to do with the negative perception of him. People love tall QBs but a tall QB with nothing between the ears is useless to me.

I'm really starting to like Josh Rosen. His personality is a little bit abrasive from the sounds of it, but honestly, I could care less. He has a level of experience that in my mind is critical in a QB.  If he comes out and balls out, it doesn't matter to me if he's the most pleasant person on the planet. I can see why some like Mayfield, but it's just hard for me to love Big 12 QBs considering they literally don't face defensive pressure ever.

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14 minutes ago, broncos67 said:

For the record, the biggest reason Wilson slid to the 4th round was because of stupid concerns about his height, IIRC. It was well known that he was a proficient passer, even in college, but he's incredibly short, and I think that had a lot to do with the negative perception of him. People love tall QBs but a tall QB with nothing between the ears is useless to me.

I'm really starting to like Josh Rosen. His personality is a little bit abrasive from the sounds of it, but honestly, I could care less. He has a level of experience that in my mind is critical in a QB.  If he comes out and balls out, it doesn't matter to me if he's the most pleasant person on the planet. I can see why some like Mayfield, but it's just hard for me to love Big 12 QBs considering they literally don't face defensive pressure ever.

Unless Mayfield lights the Combine and puts up some Wilson like measurable (hand size, velo, etc.) - he's probably going to fall to Day 2.   Big 12 and his lack of physical attributes will no doubt knock him down.  What separated Wilson besides his college tape (sustained success on a Big 10 facing the big boys is always a green flag), was he still possessed a rocket arm and huge hands (so less risk of being strip sacked, etc.), along with his mobility and polished passing skills - it's generally recognized if he had been 6'4, 220, like the prototype QB, he'd have been a top 5 pick.   To this day, scouts are still huge on those traits - scrambling, smaller guys get profiled into the Manziel bust profile, whether or not it's rightly deserved.   For every Russ Wilson, there are far more washouts with that size profile - so I suspect the CW will push him down, unless he shows the same measurable as Wilson did that broke the mold.

If Mayfield doesn't light the world on fire, then taking him Day 2 (even Rd 2) makes a ton of sense if we can't get to Darnold / Rosen.    What I don't want to see is Elway falling in love with 1 guy and reaching for him way ahead of where the board puts him - that hasn't worked for Elway at all (the ones where's he's reached because a guy is falling due to off-the-field concerns, those have been hits - Ray & Roby). 

Really, we probably aren't going to have 1 set plan, as we aren't going to be high enough to get one of the big 2 QB's on our own - but at least the possibility of moving up is there if we just keep losing.  Getting a top 6-8 pick at least opens the possibility of moving up (realizing teams have us outgunned in overall draft capital, but our starting pick might be better than those teams - specifically, thinking BUF & ARI).     We really want Darnold to declare to give us options - NYG is for sure going QB IMO, and they are locked in to a top 3 pick.   CLE could spend their cap $ for a Cousins (in a sign and trade, WAS can put a transition tag, and then negotiate a trade, that seems most likely) type, and we know SF is likely not going QB.  I actually think one of those 2 teams (CLE/SF) is targeting RB Saquon Barkley - truly generational, HoF ceiling talent.    But if we can't land Rosen, I do NOT want Allen in Rd 1 at all - way too much bust potential, raw and unmolded, like Lynch.  Would rather we piecemeal a FA QB and go Day 2 with someone else (Mayfield ideal IMO there), or just punt it back another year.   Allen's not even a 50 percent passer in college - that's a HUGE red flag.   Potential elite QB athlete but with raw actual QB-specific skills (reading, accuracy, pocket awareness) - no thanks.  Not again..especially at where he's being mocked. 

The silver lining to our sudden nosedive into oblivion is that we do have a lot more options that it looked at start of season, where a top 6-8 pick was a pipe dream.   Frankly, for our long-term health, we should be rooting for L's rest of way, no matter how hard it is to watch on Gameday.

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