Baseball is back? 60 game season incoming

[MWil23]

16 hours ago, mse326 said:

This is where I think there is a disconnect between those of us completely on the players side and those blaming both. The players did make a concession when they agreed to pro rated salaries instead of demanding full compensation. Their contracts don't mandate they go pro rated, they had to agree to that. They had the right under their contracts to demand full contract, not pro rated. I think you may be taking it as a given like obviously they should agree to pro rated given the situation, and I can mostly agree with that, but the point is they did. They did make a concession. Now the owners want them to make further concessions. So the players have given a brief concession, the owners just aren't happy with how much.

Oh, make no mistake about it, I levy the blame right now at about 95% owners and 5% players. The players, as you've said, have already made concessions on pro rated salaries, are making a concerted reasonable effort in negotiations, and it's extremely apparent that the owners don't care, for reasons already mentioned by others/that I've already stated.

All I'm saying is, the public perception of this is BAD, mostly because of the owners, but the public won't care and the damage will be done. I understand the MLBPA's points and rationale as to why they won't make concessions, but the fallout is going to be catastrophic here on baseball in general. They all have had a golden opportunity to get this right, and have fallen flat on their faces.

When the MLS (already figured it out), the NBA (already figured it out), the NFL (will figure it out) and golf (is in the process of figuring it out) are back, and baseball has missed their window, fans who would have been chomping at the bit/starved for sports would have stuck with it and latched on for a while move on and never look back (I'm not talking about most of us here who are diehard baseball fans anyway, just the general public/popularity), then there will be plenty of blame to go around.

[ramssuperbowl99]

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

85% of the owners don't care about the perception/popularity of the sport, putting a quality product on the field, winning, or anything other than the valuation of their franchise, all at the fans' expense, the player's expense, and the lining of their own pockets.

100%, this is the core problem with the MLB today. And you can add Manfred to that 85% too. He admitted already this offseason that to him, the World Series trophy is just a piece of metal. It's sad, but the reality for a few years now has been that Major League Baseball has stopped caring about baseball.

[MWil23]

1 minute ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

100%, this is the core problem with the MLB today. And you can add Manfred to that 85% too. He admitted already this offseason that to him, the World Series trophy is just a piece of metal. It's sad, but the reality for a few years now has been that Major League Baseball has stopped caring about baseball.

If the future of baseball is a question, you should see the kids that I had coming out for the team 10 years ago compared to now, and that's in a district where baseball is king/our program is outstanding. The numbers are 1/2. Then, throw in the inner cities, where baseball is essentially dying off. 

[GSUeagles14]

36 minutes ago, mse326 said:

Ending the regular season on the 11th isn't really a big deal. The owners might not want to do it because of an imagined fear, but it is hardly an actual roadblock if the owners were good with everything else. They can even shorten it a little more but keep the games if they suggest scheduling some double headers. I have no doubt the players would agree to a handful or so especially with the expanded rosters everyone has already agreed on. Their reaction is purely the salary and they are just claiming other things in hopes of getting more concessions and some pure PR BS where they say it isn't just the money. The sad part is clearly it is working on some people

Well see, thats all your opinion. Theres probably concerns about money/salary, theres probably concerns about broadcast deals, theres probably concerns about pushing the playoffs so far out that health could be an issue (and not player healthy imo, only that a 2nd wave of rona could pop up and the later it gets in the year the perception it is the more likely we see it, so no fans in the stands).

 

We fundamentally disagree about pay. I personally think players  taking such a hard line is shortsighted and if they get their way its only going to affect them down the road (i.e. free agency). Besides that, I think both sides are to blame, close enough to 50/50 that deciding who to blame more is moot. its been hashed and rehashed but mlb as a whole (players included) royally screwed this up. Being "completely on the players side" is just as foolish as "completely being on the owners side" imo. 

[GSUeagles14]

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

At least I feel justified in what I've always believed:

85% of the owners don't care about the perception/popularity of the sport, putting a quality product on the field, winning, or anything other than the valuation of their franchise, all at the fans' expense, the player's expense, and the lining of their own pockets.

It's a game and hobby to most of them, and they can afford to operate at a loss for a few years, because they'll quintuple their investment over a period of 20-25 years, then make a killing when they sell.

A salary "cap" was never the issue as much as having a salary "floor", not to mention taxpayer funded stadiums, essentially everything Loria did/has done, various issues with team control on players, the entire premise of arbitration, and the connotation of "owner" has never been more accurate than as it's used in the MLB.

if im interpreting your last statement correctly, its offensive and ignorant. if its not what i thought then apologies. 

 

Otherwise, this is a business, the goal of a business is to make money. Youre second statement is also foolish, the owners have a large vested interest in baseball being "popular". MOst individual teams want to win, and if the only reason is to have as much money coming in then who cares. No one really cares about coming to see an individual player in baseball. Anthny rendon does not move the needle but he just got paid 245 mil. why?

 

Also, we dont know but i suspect that a salary cap would hurt players way more than it helps. Most teams will easily surpass whatever floor is in place.

[MWil23]

1 minute ago, GSUeagles14 said:

if im interpreting your last statement correctly, its offensive and ignorant. if its not what i thought then apologies. 

Offensive and ignorant HOW? When Loria holds the city of Miami hostage/threatens to move, they fund the stadium with taxpayer dollars, he then proceeds to get record season tickets pour in, and ships out a good portion of the stars, and sells the team for a HUGE profit. He had a track record equally as abysmal in Montreal. If you read into it more than that, that's 100% on you.

1 minute ago, GSUeagles14 said:

Otherwise, this is a business, the goal of a business is to make money.

Then don't hold cities and fanbases hostage and lie to them about putting "a winning team on the field", or that "you can't afford it", or that "you're not making money" when Forbes proves you wrong, quite literally, as does that Atlanta Braves organization.

1 minute ago, GSUeagles14 said:

Youre second statement is also foolish, the owners have a large vested interest in baseball being "popular". MOst individual teams want to win,

No they don't and no they don't. See: The 10 teams in the lowest payroll over the last 20 years that aren't "Moneyball Teams" who haven't even attempted to put a winning product on the field, all while netting a huge profit.

1 minute ago, GSUeagles14 said:

and if the only reason is to have as much money coming in then who cares.

Fans, players, GM's, and the cities that are paying good tax money for costly stadium leases. Other than that, no one.

1 minute ago, GSUeagles14 said:

No one really cares about coming to see an individual player in baseball. Anthny rendon does not move the needle but he just got paid 245 mil. why?

 

Also, we dont know but i suspect that a salary cap would hurt players way more than it helps. Most teams will easily surpass whatever floor is in place.

LOL

[GSUeagles14]

11 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Offensive and ignorant HOW? When Loria holds the city of Miami hostage/threatens to move, they fund the stadium with taxpayer dollars, he then proceeds to get record season tickets pour in, and ships out a good portion of the stars, and sells the team for a HUGE profit. He had a track record equally as abysmal in Montreal. If you read into it more than that, that's 100% on you.

Then don't hold cities and fanbases hostage and lie to them about putting "a winning team on the field", or that "you can't afford it", or that "you're not making money" when Forbes proves you wrong, quite literally, as does that Atlanta Braves organization.

No they don't and no they don't. See: The 10 teams in the lowest payroll over the last 20 years that aren't "Moneyball Teams" who haven't even attempted to put a winning product on the field, all while netting a huge profit.

Fans, players, GM's, and the cities that are paying good tax money for costly stadium leases. Other than that, no one.

LOL

explain what you mean in regards to the owner comment. Owners of businesses can do what they want with their business as long as its within the confines of the law and any other signed agreements. If you meant something else other than in regards to an owner and their business, well, thats incredibly offensive. The more i read it, the more it seems its the latter. 

 

Youre second paragraph is also unclear, are you talking about Loria again, which seems to be an outlier, or the braves. If its the latter, then please include some links/proof. If its the former then it speaks volumes youre using such an outlier. 

 

Who specifically are you talking about, what are their profits? Furthermore, why would you care if they only want to be good so people will spend more money. 

 

Lastly, a response of LOL only kind of means you dont have a good answer. No, no one cares about Anthony Rendon playing baseball. We dont know specific #s so its hard to say, but looking at other sports with a cap tied to revenue, mainly the nfl, you can imagine what caps and floors would look like for baseball. Again, its a guess, but most teams are above the floor that could theoretically be in place.

[mse326]

38 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said:

Theres probably concerns about money/salary,

There's not probably. That is definite

 

38 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said:

theres probably concerns about broadcast deals

There's too much money for the owners and the broadcasters for this to be an actual impediment. Pure bluster. And like I said I said that end date can easily be shortened even without less games.

 

40 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said:

theres probably concerns about pushing the playoffs so far out that health could be an issue (and not player healthy imo, only that a 2nd wave of rona could pop up and the later it gets in the year the perception it is the more likely we see it, so no fans in the stands).

There isn't really. The whole negotiation is premised on no fans at games anyway. The 2nd wave would have to shut the country down again to be an issue, and that is simply not gonna happen.

 

41 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said:

Besides that, I think both sides are to blame, close enough to 50/50

That is just ludicrous. You just want the players to bend over and yes sir, thank you sir, is there any more I can do for you sir.

[MWil23]

1 minute ago, GSUeagles14 said:

explain what you mean in regards to the owner comment. Owners of businesses can do what they want with their business as long as its within the confines of the law and any other signed agreements. If you meant something else other than in regards to an owner and their business, well, thats incredibly offensive. The more i read it, the more it seems its the latter. 

When owners bring TAX FUNDING into it, it's not just THEIR business, it's a cooperative relationship and BINDING LEGAL CONTRACT between owners and cities. FACT. Throw in things like "years of control" over players and willfully doing things detrimental to their ball clubs by forcing players in the minors at the expense of playing other worse players (See: Kris Bryant), that's also a factor.

1 minute ago, GSUeagles14 said:

 

Youre second paragraph is also unclear, are you talking about Loria again, which seems to be an outlier, or the braves. If its the latter, then please include some links/proof. If its the former then it speaks volumes youre using such an outlier. 

An outlier. That's hilarious.

1 minute ago, GSUeagles14 said:

Who specifically are you talking about, what are their profits? Furthermore, why would you care if they only want to be good so people will spend more money. 

I'm not sure what you're stating or asking here.

1 minute ago, GSUeagles14 said:

Lastly, a response of LOL only kind of means you dont have a good answer. No, no one cares about Anthony Rendon playing baseball. We dont know specific #s so its hard to say, but looking at other sports with a cap tied to revenue, mainly the nfl, you can imagine what caps and floors would look like for baseball. Again, its a guess, but most teams are above the floor that could theoretically be in place.

LOL

[ramssuperbowl99]

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

If the future of baseball is a question, you should see the kids that I had coming out for the team 10 years ago compared to now, and that's in a district where baseball is king/our program is outstanding. The numbers are 1/2. Then, throw in the inner cities, where baseball is essentially dying off. 

Oh I believe it. And it comes down to money. Mike Clevinger has gone off on this topic a few times about how expensive it is for a middle class family to support a baseball player. You'd think the MLB would realize that maintaining that critical mass of players is necessary and that they should invest in youth baseball, but nope. 

And the end result is baseball's youth participation is dropping in the era that we learned football turns people's brains into mush. It's staggering how short sighted the owners are, but I guess if you plan to sell high and don't care about the sport, who cares.

[MWil23]

2 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Oh I believe it. And it comes down to money. Mike Clevinger has gone off on this topic a few times about how expensive it is for a middle class family to support a baseball player. You'd think the MLB would realize that maintaining that critical mass of players is necessary and that they should invest in youth baseball, but nope. 

The cost of baseball is THROUGH THE ROOF. Essentially, you have the end of ACME and Rec league baseballs at formative years (10 and under) where kids should be feeling things out, learning basics, and getting their feet wet. Now, you have 6 year old select leagues/travel teams (I'm serious), whereas when I was growing up, nothing like that happened until you were 11 or 12, and even then it was ACME select, not these all area travel teams. We had 3-4 tournaments a year, all of which except for 1 was a local weekend tournament. Now, it's hotel accommodations, $400 bats, $400 gloves, 3 different uniform combinations, fundraising, gas money, plane flights...ridiculous.

It makes you wonder if inner city stars like Mike Schmidt and most other African American players (that number has been cut by 75% since 1990) in a lot of these big cities ever stick with baseball for that reason.

2 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

And the end result is baseball's youth participation is dropping in the era that we learned football turns people's brains into mush. It's staggering how short sighted the owners are, but I guess if you plan to sell high and don't care about the sport, who cares.

That's because in sports like football, you get backing from the community, local games, almost zero travel, and the fee you pay for covers the use of (not purchase of, key difference) equipment, practices, and games.

The same for AAU basketball, etc.

...and then you have things that don't even scratch the surface like marketing the game, start times that aren't at 8:37 EST for the World Series/biggest comparable game...the list goes on.

[ramssuperbowl99]

2 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

The cost of baseball is THROUGH THE ROOF. Essentially, you have the end of ACME and Rec league baseballs at formative years (10 and under) where kids should be feeling things out, learning basics, and getting their feet wet. Now, you have 6 year old select leagues/travel teams (I'm serious), whereas when I was growing up, nothing like that happened until you were 11 or 12, and even then it was ACME select, not these all area travel teams. We had 3-4 tournaments a year, all of which except for 1 was a local weekend tournament. Now, it's hotel accommodations, $400 bats, $400 gloves, 3 different uniform combinations, fundraising, gas money, plane flights...ridiculous.

That's closing in on hockey money.

[MWil23]

6 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

That's closing in on hockey money.

Omar Vizquel played catch with a milk carton, but thankfully some kid named King can have 3 Rawlings Gold Glove/Liberty variations and an infield/outfield/1B/C glove with his matching 3 pairs of cleats to correspond to various uniform variations. 

Unfortunately he can’t hit and has a rag arm.

[GSUeagles14]

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

When owners bring TAX FUNDING into it, it's not just THEIR business, it's a cooperative relationship and BINDING LEGAL CONTRACT between owners and cities. FACT. Throw in things like "years of control" over players and willfully doing things detrimental to their ball clubs by forcing players in the minors at the expense of playing other worse players (See: Kris Bryant), that's also a factor.

 

its what i figured you meant, so incredibly offensive, naive, dumb, and ignorant.

 

i should you stop given that view alone but i cant let thoughts without logic or fact behind them go... if something was legally binding and it was violated, then loria or anyone else could be liable. regardless of what was said as a handshake agreement or in passing or whatever.

Quote

An outlier. That's hilarious.

Literally theres nothing here. normally, smart ideas are backed up with legitimate evidence, examples, etc. Do you have any of that? Loria was a poor owner, who compares to him and the sheer # of examples we can point to of what he did. 

Quote

I'm not sure what you're stating or asking here.

it was fairly simple, you made a claim and i asked for the smallest level of detail. who are the 10 lowest playoff teams that arent money ball teams and what were their revenues? to save time, part of that question is impossible to know but you still made a claim about it. 

Quote

LOL

Are you proud of this? Why even post here if you cant back up your ideas?

Edited June 10, 2020 by GSUeagles14

[GSUeagles14]

1 hour ago, mse326 said:

There's not probably. That is definite

 

There's too much money for the owners and the broadcasters for this to be an actual impediment. Pure bluster. And like I said I said that end date can easily be shortened even without less games.

 

There isn't really. The whole negotiation is premised on no fans at games anyway. The 2nd wave would have to shut the country down again to be an issue, and that is simply not gonna happen.

 

That is just ludicrous. You just want the players to bend over and yes sir, thank you sir, is there any more I can do for you sir.

1. Extremely likely. But no, not definite, unless you have something from the mlb or something?

2. Youre opinion, and much of it involves the unknowable for you and me. Id imagine theres too much money for broadcasters to lose for the world series, but the other playoff series... based off viewership #s its completely possible broadcasters would simply say its not worth it.  

3. Again, your opinion. its certainly within the realm of possibility. For one, to pretend the owners cant see down the road to october, after we've seen things open up like they have, and think theres a chance fans could go to games. On top of that, as theyre looking down the road at different scenarios, its fairly easy to think taht there could be some restrictions put in place if theres a 2nd wave. not a shut down, but perhaps limiting a gathering of 40k people? Yup, thats a possibility. and as much as it sucks that a health scare has become left vs right, its easier to see those restrictions in liberal places. Like say California and New York....

4. No i dont I want what ive said i want, the two sides to come to an agreement that works for both. In theory the players are less at fault in a vacuum, but its moot. Theyve taken a short sided stance imo, and on top of that theyve done a poor job of negotiating.