Vikings Pick at 22

[vikingsrule]

5 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

Colby Gossett, Willie Beavers, and Danny Isidora are some recent examples of players they hoped to develop into starters. Not only didn't those plans pan out, but these guys mostly weren't even worth a roster spot for very long.

Going back a bit further in Spielmans reign of ineptitude along the offensive line: Jeff Baca, Travis Bond, David Yankey, Austin Shepher, Tyrus Thompson, TJ Clemmings

If the Vikings want to find starters, they need to start valuing offensive linemen better. Pick 22 is the first time during this draft for them to consider that.

Gossett didn’t even make it out of camp, I don’t think there was hope he’d develop into a starter. Isidora perhaps, they stuck with him the longest. Beavers was a terrible pick and it seems they realized that mistake fairly early on. 

Theres no IOL worth the 22nd pick and I think that’s where the emphasis needs to be in this years draft. Are we really moving a career OT to Guard in what will truly be a unique offseason with much less preparation. Doubtful. 

Edited April 7, 2020 by vikingsrule

[Cearbhall]

9 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

Theres no IOL worth the 22nd pick and I think that’s where the emphasis needs to be in this years draft. Are we really moving a career OT to Guard in what will truly be a unique offseason with much less preparation. Doubtful. 

I wouldn't move Reiff to guard. But then, when I am drafting I would not be thinking much about this year. The time to think about starters this year is when examining free agents. The draft is about finding players to develop for future years. If a draft pick exceeds that expectation that is just great. If an OT I drafted exceeded expectations that much I would look to trade Reiff, and failing that I would cut him.

It is important to project what your impending needs will be when drafting. These are the guys you are hoping will fill those needs.

For immediate needs you look at free agents.

OT is an impending need. It is a position worth considering at 22.

OG is an immediate need as well as a double (LG and RG) impending need. The team didn't sign a OG that should be considered as anything but a place holder for this year. They ought to sign a place holder free agent and draft an OG. It is a position worth considering at 22.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Cearbhall

[SemperFeist]

30 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

Colby Gossett, Willie Beavers, and Danny Isidora are some recent examples of players they hoped to develop into starters. Not only didn't those plans pan out, but these guys mostly weren't even worth a roster spot for very long.

Going back a bit further in Spielmans reign of ineptitude along the offensive line: Jeff Baca, Travis Bond, David Yankey, Austin Shepherd, Tyrus Thompson, TJ Clemmings.

I don't know how many of these guys even played out their rookie contract in the league.

If the Vikings want to find starters, they need to start valuing offensive linemen better. Pick 22 is the first time during this draft for them to consider that.

And you know for certain that they were drafted to be developed into starters? Teams draft players to become backups, as well players to just fill the roster. It’s also interesting that you left players like John Sullivan and Brandon Fusco off of your list. You know, the successes they’ve had. All teams have more misses than hits, that’s the nature of the draft.

And why were Sullivan and Fusco successful? Maybe because they were drafted into offensive systems with coaches who were around long enough to develop those players. 

We talk about how well the team has drafted and developed defenders late, maybe that’s because we’ve had the same system and coaches for 6 years. The players on the offensive side have not had that luxury. Under Childress and Frazier, where the continuity among the offense was a lot better than it has been under Zimmer, we actually saw late round offensive linemen develop. But under Zimmer, we haven’t seen the same OC or OL coach for more than 2 years. Maybe that might be a bigger reason for the lack of development than “bad drafting”. 

They used their 1st pick on an offensive lineman last year, and their 2nd pick in both the 2017 and 2018 drafts. Not to mention considerable investments in free agency. I bet you won’t find many teams that have put more value into the offensive line than that. 

[RpMc]

^^ 

Elflein was a third round pick FWIW, so it’s been a first, second, third (reverse order) in three years. 

[SemperFeist]

3 minutes ago, RpMc said:

^^ 

Elflein was a third round pick FWIW, so it’s been a first, second, third (reverse order) in three years. 

I said 2nd pick. Not 2nd round pick. 😉 

[Cearbhall]

26 minutes ago, SemperFeist said:

And you know for certain that they were drafted to be developed into starters? Teams draft players to become backups, as well players to just fill the roster. It’s also interesting that you left players like John Sullivan and Brandon Fusco off of your list. You know, the successes they’ve had. All teams have more misses than hits, that’s the nature of the draft.

You know for certain they weren't? And why does it matter if they drafted every single one of them to become starters? A better question for you is this: did the team plan on none of them becoming starters? Leaving off John Sullivan and Brandon Fusco was not a case of cherry picking. I started in 2012 when Rick had full control of the draft.

I do not care to discuss this with you and your strawman any further here. I have no problem with you thinking whatever you want to think. I think the Vikings need to get better at valuing offensive linemen. I hope that isn't a problem for you. This thread is about pick 22.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Cearbhall

[Uncle Buck]

@goldfishwars could you post the picks that have been made so far?

[Uncle Buck]

How far would Kinlaw have to fall before you guys would consider trading up for him?  Either that, or is he even that much better than the next best DE to do that?

[DisplacedViking]

Kinlaw likely will be a DT, ideally 3-tech, not a defensive end. I personally would not prefer to trade up unless they could do so with a 1st and one of the 3rd round picks this year. With the current salary cap situation it may prove beneficial to keep the majority, if not all of their picks in the first 4 rounds. 

Pertaining to pick 22 (& most all of their picks), I will continue to prescribe to BPA with a couple caveats. BPA relative to how you have your big board stacked, and considering specific team needs and positional value. For example, if somehow Kinlaw and Justin Jefferson were both available at 22 I would pick Kinlaw even though the Vikings theoretically need a WR more than a 3 tech, although that could easily be debated. I think Kinlaw is a superior talent at an important position, and the drop off from he to the next DT is farther than it is from Jefferson to the next several WRs...all just my opinions. My real point is I would prefer not to determine what position I am going to pick at a given spot in the draft, rather let the quality of player and the perceived perception of the dropoff in talent to the next player at that position if that position is both valuable (no kickers or long snappers, etc.) and not a position where you may have a surplus of talent (I don't see much need to prioritize running back or tight end).

Edited April 8, 2020 by DisplacedViking

[pacman5252]

I’m probably in the minority but I think OT considering all the other needs is not in play early. Reiff is average per most grading sites and at 13m in 20/21 isn’t a terrible contract. That is also too much to try him at guard. Reading between the lines I don’t see the FO taking one unless a stud falls.
 

 I could see a Cesar Ruiz in play at G though in play if Rick thinks he is the missing piece. With Bradbury/Samia year 2, adding a quality G and natural jumps could make the line nasty (easily the highest pedigree line the team has had in over a decade).

Fulton/Glad need to be considered due to the dire corner situation.

WR is kind of the same (although a trade down to R2 is probably the way to go)

 

[Illadelegend215]

I think we need to fix our secondary so an elite corner works 

[Purplexing]

 

16 hours ago, Cearbhall said:

Colby Gossett, Willie Beavers, and Danny Isidora are some recent examples of players they hoped to develop into starters. Not only didn't those plans pan out, but these guys mostly weren't even worth a roster spot for very long.

 

 

The focus on pick 22 ignores the pick soon available at 25.

So, the thought process for #22 should consider pick #25 being an option; i.e. consider TWO positions when deciding on the 22nd pick.

A secondary consideration is the needs of teams slotted at 23 and 24, or potential trade-ups by teams not too far below #25.

That said, the Vikings CB and DE corp looks to be weaker at this point in time than OL, DT, WR. 

So, I'd opt for a CB or DE at 22, then the other at 25.

 

[CriminalMind]

9 minutes ago, Purplexing said:

 

 

The focus on pick 22 ignores the pick soon available at 25.

So, the thought process for #22 should consider pick #25 being an option; i.e. consider TWO positions when deciding on the 22nd pick.

A secondary consideration is the needs of teams slotted at 23 and 24, or potential trade-ups by teams not too far below #25.

That said, the Vikings CB and DE corp looks to be weaker at this point in time than OL, DT, WR. 

So, I'd opt for a CB or DE at 22, then the other at 25.

 

I don't agree with DE being "weaker" than OL (LT/LG).

Hunter is our starter for a couple of years. Looking at next year, we likely have 0 starters at LT and LG.

We have 2 workable CBs with Hill and Hughes, and 2 DEs with Hunter and Odenigbo, currently on the roster.

I like YGM as a value pick, but LT/LG is still the bigger need currently and going forward.

 

 

[TENINCH]

Just now, CriminalMind said:

I don't agree with DE being "weaker" than OL (LT/LG).

Hunter is our starter for a couple of years. Looking at next year, we likely have 0 starters at LT and LG.

We have 2 workable CBs with Hill and Hughes, and 2 DEs with Hunter and Odenigbo, currently on the roster.

I like YGM as a value pick, but LT/LG is still the bigger need currently and going forward.

 

 

Agreed. If the value was there for a LT or LG I'd take them all day. YGM would likely be BPA.

[CriminalMind]

3 minutes ago, TENINCH said:

Agreed. If the value was there for a LT or LG I'd take them all day. YGM would likely be BPA.

If YGM has been taken before #22, I might not draft DE till the late 3rd rounder, as its not a massive need (coupled with not a great DE class).