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Can we have an "identity" that will lead to greatness?


Uncle Buck

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9 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

Agreed. Kline isn’t a huge loss and I like the teams decision to rely on a young player to fill the spot, presumably Samia.

Diggs will be tough to replace. Likely won’t find a receiver as good as him in this draft for this year, this is where Cousins will need to step up and spread the ball around. Still a need exists for a deep threat.

Other than timing between QB's and WR's, I don't know of any unit that requires the offseason work more than offensive line units...especially a unit that intends to run the Zone Blocking scheme.  Going into a football season where the offensive line has not spent much time together, missing last years most productive receiver, and depending on a QB that needs a pocket, makes me very nervous.  Under this likely scenario, I don't see how the offense will not get man handled for at least the first half of the season.

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1 minute ago, Virginia Viking said:

Other than timing between QB's and WR's, I don't know of any unit that requires the offseason work more than offensive line units...especially a unit that intends to run the Zone Blocking scheme.  Going into a football season where the offensive line has not spent much time together, missing last years most productive receiver, and depending on a QB that needs a pocket, makes me very nervous.  Under this likely scenario, I don't see how the offense will not get man handled for at least the first half of the season.

Considering how they still currently have 4 of the 5 offensive linemen starting from last year, I don't know how they can't do anything but improve from last year regardless of the offseason work.  Offensive linemen haven't been able to hit anyone until training camp anyway for years.  

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6 minutes ago, swede700 said:

Considering how they still currently have 4 of the 5 offensive linemen starting from last year, I don't know how they can't do anything but improve from last year regardless of the offseason work.  Offensive linemen haven't been able to hit anyone until training camp anyway for years.  

Practice is not just about hitting guys. The offensive line needs to get to work on staying at the same level. Bradbury was terrible with getting out of alignment with his linemates. He needs to get coordinated with them and a lot of work can be done on that without hitting people. Get that first step off in the right direction and depth, move vertically in alignment, peel off at the right time. Bradbury struggled really badly and needs the practice.  Pat Elflein, well, I have already pretty much put down all hope in him so practice or no practice doesn't matter much. Then the other guard also needs to work together with Bradbury and Elflein. hitting or not, losing out on practice is going to harm their chances of learning to work together and stay at the right depth.

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1 hour ago, Virginia Viking said:

And after the season, the offense got noticeably worse.  Diggs production is traded.  Kline, the best interior lineman on the team, was let go.  I suspect that the Vikings offense will be even more one dimensional and reliant on the run game than anytime since AP was the running game. Cook is very good when he's not injured...but, he's not Adrian Peterson.

I’m not to worried about the offense. You have to remember that Thielen missed a lot of the season, Sharpe will help a lot now that he has a real QB, Irv Smith will be better in year 2 and we will draft a WR or 2 as well. And I see at least 1 ( maybe 2) O-lineman being drafted.. I think we will be fine.

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2 hours ago, swede700 said:

Considering how they still currently have 4 of the 5 offensive linemen starting from last year, I don't know how they can't do anything but improve from last year regardless of the offseason work.  Offensive linemen haven't been able to hit anyone until training camp anyway for years.  

Pat Elflein is still one of the four left.  Riley Reiff, statistically was a mid-level LT, but whenever I saw him (in national games against better defenses) he was a swinging saloon door. I know others feel better about him than I do.  Kline, on the other hand, had a pretty decent, bounce back season last year.  He wasn't costing all that much...I would've kept him around.  Bradley had a rough rookie season.  His breakdowns were mainly mental mistakes.  He wasn't ready for pro ball.  He improved as the season wore on, but he still needs a lot of work on timing, alignments, and recognizing what the DL is doing pre-snap.  So, in my mind, 3 of the 4 returning starters need a full off season of work.

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Uncle Buck asked what we could do to make the playoffs THIS season.  I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's highly unlikely.  

We have a lot of draft picks.  That's great for the future but for the present, it's not going to do much.  We would have to be insanely fortunate to get any contribution of significance from more than one or two of them.  Didn't Zimmer famously say that it takes three years or so for a CB to learn his defense?  I think that's mostly Zimmer trying to come across as a mastermind or something, but if he halfway believes it, no corner we draft this season will do much of anything.  So Mike Hughes, Kris Boyd and Holton Hill are going to stop Rodgers, Stafford (and Foles?) twice, Russell Wilson, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Dak Prescott, Matt Ryan, Desean Watson, and Philip Rivers?  I'm not optimistic.

I don't think the team will embarrass themselves or us this season, but the playoffs seem years off to me.  I would be impressed with 8-8 honestly.  We're overall less talented than last season and there's nothing that will change besides rookies and bottom of the barrel free agents at this point.  

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4 hours ago, Hyperborean said:

Uncle Buck asked what we could do to make the playoffs THIS season.  I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's highly unlikely.  

We have a lot of draft picks.  That's great for the future but for the present, it's not going to do much.  We would have to be insanely fortunate to get any contribution of significance from more than one or two of them.  Didn't Zimmer famously say that it takes three years or so for a CB to learn his defense?  I think that's mostly Zimmer trying to come across as a mastermind or something, but if he halfway believes it, no corner we draft this season will do much of anything.  So Mike Hughes, Kris Boyd and Holton Hill are going to stop Rodgers, Stafford (and Foles?) twice, Russell Wilson, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Dak Prescott, Matt Ryan, Desean Watson, and Philip Rivers?  I'm not optimistic.

I don't think the team will embarrass themselves or us this season, but the playoffs seem years off to me.  I would be impressed with 8-8 honestly.  We're overall less talented than last season and there's nothing that will change besides rookies and bottom of the barrel free agents at this point.  

That was kind of my point, greatness for this team comes from Cousins becoming a borderline elite QB. The defense is void of proven talent outside of Hunter, the LBs, and Safeties. The team also doesn’t have a good running game, looking at post October results and we’ve lost a huge threat in Diggs. The roster is going through a major transition, the timing isn’t aligned for greatness until we get more meaningful contributions from recent draft picks. Unless of course, Cousins has only scratched the surface of his potential and carries the team.

Edited by vikingsrule
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On 4/12/2020 at 8:04 AM, Illadelegend215 said:

We had a chance at a deep playoff run and we blew it last year. Truthfully i see us going through a 6-10 or 7-9 type of year where we do not make the playoffs. We have regressed on both sides of the ball. Our identity WAS our defense, now we just trash 

I don't think you can say that.  Who, that they lost, actually was playing at their peak last year?  Arguably, the only players they lost that were still playing really well were Everson and Diggs.  Linval and Rhodes had regressed, while Mackensie and Waynes had really plateaued or even slightly regressed.  Really, I could make the argument about those 4 that those positions don't really have anywhere to go but up, or at the very least, will not lose anything. 

Like I told @Virginia Viking, and I may be overly optimistic, but looking from the outside in, I see absolutely no reason that this team can't make the playoffs again, especially in this division.  While it might be an uphill climb to do damage in the playoffs competing against the Saints and 49ers again, I have zero doubts that they have the talent to be in the mix.  I don't see the losses, outside of potentially Diggs, as a huge hurdle to overcome, as long as they remain healthy (as no team can compete without being so).  

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5 minutes ago, swede700 said:

Linval and Rhodes had regressed, while Mackensie and Waynes had really plateaued or even slightly regressed.  Really, I could make the argument about those 4 that those positions don't really have anywhere to go but up, or at the very least, will not lose anything.

This is the thing that not a lot of people realize.

Linval wasn't the same in the run game.

Losing Rhodes is addition by subtraction.

Waynes was not worth what he got in Cincy, I would've liked him back but not at that price.

Mac was tough, if he truly wanted to compete at outside CB in Cincy then more power to him. If he's going to be a nickel there I would've like to bring him back with a deal similar to what Cincy gave him.

The book isn't closed on Griffen. His market must not be much, if anything, outside of Seattle. I think he'll get signed after the draft. 

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The best teams in the league last season ran the ball really well. Minnesota was one of them (6th). While some teams were set up to excel to do so because of great defense, some other teams overcame issues on defense.

1) BAL -- 3,296 (5.5 ypc), 4th ranked defense

2) SAN -- 2,305 (4.6 ypc), 2nd ranked defense

3) TEN -- 2,223 (5.0 ypc), 21st ranked defense

4) SEA -- 2,200 (4.6 ypc), 26th ranked defense

5) DAL -- 2,153 (4.8 ypc) 9th ranked defense

6) MN -- 2,133 yds (4.5 ypc) 14th ranked defense

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/_/view/offense/stat/rushing/table/rushing/sort/rushingYardsPerGame/dir/desc

The only outlier was Kansas City, but otherwise the bottom half of this list are teams that didn't go to the playoffs and/or have poor records. 

Our identity to achieve greatness is already in place -- THE RUN GAME. 

Talk of this team's defense being depleted is understandable. This will be a challenging season where we will need to retool, but the running game is a strength so long as guys stay healthy and the defense can continue to get off the field.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2020-04-14 at 9:20 AM, swede700 said:

I don't think you can say that.  Who, that they lost, actually was playing at their peak last year?  Arguably, the only players they lost that were still playing really well were Everson and Diggs.  Linval and Rhodes had regressed, while Mackensie and Waynes had really plateaued or even slightly regressed.  Really, I could make the argument about those 4 that those positions don't really have anywhere to go but up, or at the very least, will not lose anything. 

Alexander was still good last year, but Waynes was mediocre and Rhodes was terrible.

Griffen was OK overall: had an impact as a pass rusher but struggled in run defense and tackling. I think he’s showing his age. 

Joseph was noticeably worse than 2018, the second consecutive year he declined. I doubt he sees the 2nd year of the $17M/2 contract the Chargers gave him. 

So in theory it shouldn’t be too hard to replace any one of the 5 starters gone from the defense. What makes it more challenging is having to replace them all at once, and mostly with guys who will be new to the team and the system. That turnover alone is a reason for the defense to take a step back, even if the individual players aren’t much or any worse than the guys they’re replacing. 

To run down the list of 5 starters being turned over, I think they got better at NT with Pierce, and hopefully won’t drop off too much at NCB with Hughes and DE with Odenigbo (though that causes another dropoff with Ifeadi unlikely to be adequately replaced as a depth pass rusher). They should be OK at Rhodes’ spot if Hughes develops, but it’s hard to believe any of the rookies or Hill will step in for Waynes without missing a beat.

It’s also worth mentioning that their depth will be considerably worse: roles played by Hughes and Odenigbo (both now promoted), Kearse, Sendejo and Weatherly will fall to rookies or veteran castoffs (like Zettel), unless they find a way to add considerable depth in the 2nd wave of FA or after roster cuts.

I think they know they’re going to take a step back this year while everyone learns the defense. It took a year or more to build the Zimmer defense in the first place — remember how mad Zimmer was in 2014 after the Miami game, or 2015 when that long rush TD in Denver got Hodges traded? They were still hit and miss at the end of 2015, though a lot of the dropoff was due to injuries, and they rose to the occasion with a few huge games at the end of the year, including at Lambeau and the playoff loss.

There will likely be similar twists and turns ahead. Some of the new guys will make it, and some will get moved out. At least they’re not starting from zero -  they still have core players on every level of the defense, including the playcallers in Barr/Kendricks and the mastermind in Smith.

The Vikings seemed to put a premium on adding character, toughness and other intangibles in the draft this year. Lots of team captains, a couple of corners with chips on their shoulder, and a couple of tenacious DL in Lynch and Willekes. They will have to be a relatively “no-name” defense for a year or two while the new guys get up to speed, so I think the emphasis on team-first attitudes and competitive toughness was no accident. There was no interest in talented-but-troubled or inconsistent players, just more of a blue collar attitude.

The NFL is so competitive that any step back is likely to be punished. And the Vikings face an especially daunting slate of opposing offenses and QBs this year. I don’t expect it to go perfectly. I just hope they can be scrappy enough to hang around as a average to above average unit, then put it together for a stretch run at the end of the year. 

Edited by Krauser
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The identity of this team, post-draft, is still Kirk Cousins.  The draft was pretty good, but the LT we took in the 2nd round is not likely to be a day one starter.  Reiff will remain at tackle, which means Elflein will be the LG most likely.  Hopefully Bradbury improves. RG, maybe Samia?  Maybe Jones?  O'Neill will continue to be a stud at RT.  AS far as the draft is concerned, IOL wasn't really helped much, if at all.  I anticipate that the IOL's will be depth if they make the final roster.  But, maybe they can be coached up. Can Jefferson match Diggs production of last season?  Can a 30 year old Adam Thielen continue to produce or are we seeing with his injuries last year an inevitable decline?  The key to success in 2020 will be the play of Cousins.  He was good last year.  Can he be even better?

I am expecting a pretty mediocre 2020 season.  I expect 2021, however, to be very good to great. I am ok with that.

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